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#556889 - 09/09/09 11:25 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Joe Lee]
Bring Back Zot Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/05
Posts: 2438
I appreciate Pat Broderick's response. Rich Johnston should interview Pat to get a balanced picture.

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#556890 - 09/09/09 11:37 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7086
In the comments section on Johnston's article there are a couple of people who make the comment about the general poor quality of work that Bluewater is willing to publish. Technically not the issue, but I think really that it is.

The artwork on their best-selling books ó the unauthorized biographies ó is atrocious. Why not hand those high profile projects to someone like Pat who can actually draw? Because people (or maybe just the retailers, I haven't heard the sell-through numbers) are buying those books for the subjects' name recognition, not the talent. Davis knows this. Then when those crappy hacks want him to publish their creator-owned work, well, that's "not fit for publication because [it does] not meet a professional standard."

Either the creators own the copyrights to the work, or they're contract labor and they get paid upfront and they're done. What Davis is offering is conditional IOU's. Anyone who just wants their work published for recognition could just as easily put something up on a POD site like indyplanet.com, or do a webcomic on Comics Genesis or Drunk Duck and make money selling merchandise through Cafe Press.

Pat's caught in a tough spot here, and that's what's coloring his opinion of Davis/Bluewater.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
ó Bob Kane

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#556903 - 09/10/09 08:59 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
techmann Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 243
In the comments section on Johnston's article there are a couple of people who make the comment about the general poor quality of work that Bluewater is willing to publish. Technically not the issue, but I think really that it is.

The artwork on their best-selling books ó the unauthorized biographies ó is atrocious. Why not hand those high profile projects to someone like Pat who can actually draw? Because people (or maybe just the retailers, I haven't heard the sell-through numbers) are buying those books for the subjects' name recognition, not the talent. Davis knows this. Then when those crappy hacks want him to publish their creator-owned work, well, that's "not fit for publication because [it does] not meet a professional standard."

Either the creators own the copyrights to the work, or they're contract labor and they get paid upfront and they're done. What Davis is offering is conditional IOU's. Anyone who just wants their work published for recognition could just as easily put something up on a POD site like indyplanet.com, or do a webcomic on Comics Genesis or Drunk Duck and make money selling merchandise through Cafe Press.

Pat's caught in a tough spot here, and that's what's coloring his opinion of Davis/Bluewater.



Goood Morning.
If I say ďAppleĒ someoneís going to say ďOrangesĒ.. Bluewater is a company starting from the ground up and has faced the same challenges that all startup companies faced. Tight startup capital, and finding their spot and market. Their business plan is restrictive because there are no page rates for the creative staff while the properties are in production. The payment comes after sales have been made. Everyone, including yours truly, knows this going into this. This is why I said at the beginning that I want to help a young company grow. Bluewater has since proven to me that they are an open-minded company by being one of the first and most successful companies moving into the political biography comic book market. Darren knew that if comics are to survive they have to offer product that can reach out beyond the standard market out there and cross over into regions outside of the normal distribution range. He has found success in that area with sales that would make the big 4 wish they were seeing on there non-flag ship books. If other publishers had this vision, I.E. Future comics and Crossgen, they might still be around today. Both of these companies produced technically good products but both were hampered by their leadershipís vision and failed.
During my time in the industry Iíve seen both of the big two produce some real crap as far as my own personal taste was concerned yet some of these creative people grew into some really talented people. Some are still in the industry today and some arenít, and I wish them well in whatever theyíre doing. When I was a younger artist I was more critical of the art I saw, but Iím older now, more seasoned, and have come to realize that a person should be judged by how hard they work at what they do and less so on what their work looks like. Iíve come to realize this by reviewing my own history of work and seeing some really badly drawn books in my past, and also by watching the development of my students through my years as a teacher. Being and artist, as I tell my students, is a curse, Itís that nagging voice in your head that will not leave you alone. Itís a demon that tickles your spine when youíve finished a really nice piece of art, yet screams at you when you want to do something else. Itís a jealous master that never gives you a moments peace. This is what ďcolorsĒ my position.
I have often wondered how in the world we as creative people survive. And its through companies like Bluewater, and people like Darren, that makes survival possible. Iím still behind them


Pat Broderick

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#556909 - 09/10/09 09:32 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
Alex Art Buchet Offline
Member

Registered: 01/31/09
Posts: 142
Please read Steve Grant's comments:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=22868

Two further remarks:

1) If there is only back-payment, it should be a percentage of income from dollar one, not of profits. Anything else is wholly unethical.

2) If a creator ends up being paid nothing, then there is no consideration and the contract is void. The rights revert to the creator. That's contract 101.

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#556917 - 09/10/09 12:23 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7086
Originally Posted By: techmann
Bluewater is a company starting from the ground up

Not really. Bluewater is the remains of another company called Tidal Wave that went bankrupt.


Originally Posted By: techmann
The payment comes after sales have been made.

If a profitability threshold is met. Which, as of yet, has not been defined.


Originally Posted By: techmann
Darren knew that if comics are to survive they have to offer product that can reach out beyond the standard market out there and cross over into regions outside of the normal distribution range.

Are you familiar with Bill Marks/Vortex and his NASCAR comics? How about Hart Fisher/Boneyard and his Jeffrey Dahmer comics? There's really only so many of these that the market will consume before it becomes saturated. Marvel scored a huge hit with their Life of John Paul II bio-comic. Why didn't they try to milk that market more? Because they have more market savvy than Darren Davis, Bill Marks or Hart Fisher, that's why.


Originally Posted By: techmann
If other publishers had this vision, I.E. Future comics and Crossgen, they might still be around today.

Other publisher do have this vision. Noticed how many Obama comics there've been lately?

Read the Steven Grant column. The Bluewater piece is about halfway down the page.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
ó Bob Kane

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#556918 - 09/10/09 12:46 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Kirth Offline
Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 1176
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
..

I HAVE to ask.

So, Broderick...did YOU get front-end payment? Or are you hoping against hope that William Shatner's name will sell books? Vincent Price?

As far as I can tell neither of those books broke the top 300. and that's BELOW sales of 1K.

There is NO PROFIT for ANYONE below two or three thousand. Unless people are smoking your books like crack.

..
..
_________________________
It does not have to be that way. You do not have to act that way. You are hurting people. Please stop.


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#556930 - 09/10/09 02:41 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Kirth]
techmann Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 243
I HAVE to ask.

So, Broderick...did YOU get front-end payment? Or are you hoping against hope that William Shatner's name will sell books? Vincent Price?

As far as I can tell neither of those books broke the top 300. and that's BELOW sales of 1K.

There is NO PROFIT for ANYONE below two or three thousand. Unless people are smoking your books like crack.



Gentlemen
My contract is between myself and Darren at Bluewater and the details will always remain private.
I accepted the Vincent Price job because, as I have stated on other post here, I enjoyed doing something other than the standard superhero concept all of the time. Also Allen I stand by my post here on this thread. Yes other companies have ventured into other subject. But itís pointless arguing with you, my friend Allen ; I recognize your points as valid ones to you from your perspective. Do I feel that the books Iím doing for them will sell better because they have attached famous personas? It canít hurt. But also there are the possibilities of additional reward for doing the jobs well. These rewards may, or may not develop as time goes on,
Finally people, I have already completed two concepts, written, penciled, colored at least two issues of one of them, so when they hit Bluewaters schedule it will give us enough lead time to promote them and weíll wait and see how theyíll do. But at least this time I wonít get as screwed as I have been by DC.
Ownership works both ways. If something fails itís a bastard child. If it succeeds it has a thousand fathers. Since Iím doing everything on my own properties Iíll take full responsibility for their failure.
And if they succeed then Iíll thank Bluewater for the opportunity theyíve given me to produce the books for them. But what you wonít find is me blaming them for the failures of my work.
Pat Broderick

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#556944 - 09/10/09 06:34 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
Kirth Offline
Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 1176
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
..

Fair enough.

Still, Shatner's books have NEVER sold. Even Star Trek geeks didn't buy Tek War.

Those books Nimoy had his hand in didn't amount to much, either.

..
_________________________
It does not have to be that way. You do not have to act that way. You are hurting people. Please stop.


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#556964 - 09/10/09 09:36 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
charlie Offline
Member

Registered: 05/18/01
Posts: 477
Originally Posted By: techmann

When I was a younger artist I was more critical of the art I saw, but Iím older now, more seasoned, and have come to realize that a person should be judged by how hard they work at what they do and less so on what their work looks like.

Pat Broderick


Unfortunatley we don't know how hard somebody works, only what the book looks like.

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#556970 - 09/10/09 11:33 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: charlie]
Kirth Offline
Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 1176
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
..

How hard does Hitch work? Because his books alternate between pretty, pretty and just plain ugly.

..
_________________________
It does not have to be that way. You do not have to act that way. You are hurting people. Please stop.


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