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#556755 - 09/08/09 08:11 PM Bluewater Contracts
Peter Urkowitz Offline
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Registered: 08/28/00
Posts: 3231
Loc: Salem, MA, USA
We've talked about the comics publisher Bluewater Productions a few times around here. Now Rich Johnston has a new article about them and the contracts they offer freelancers:

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2009/09/07/getting-in-deep-with-bluewater-productions/

Apparently, most of their creators don't get an initial page rate, but work for a percentage of the profits. This is fine if a book does well, but it can result in the creators earning nothing if the book sells poorly or is cancelled. Also, it's an unusual arrangement in a work-for-hire setting, where the creator does not own the rights to the work.

There are lots more details in the article.

(I should note that our friend and frequent Comicon poster Pat Broderick has worked for Bluewater and expressed his satisfaction with the deal he got from them. It is not my intention to stir up dirty laundry here, Pat. I genuinely want to see Bluewater succeed. But this is an interesting topic, and I think people will want to know about it.)

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#556767 - 09/08/09 10:18 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Peter Urkowitz]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
I stand by my earlier prediction that Bluewater will cease to exist in the near future.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#556779 - 09/09/09 12:49 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
charlie Offline
Member

Registered: 05/18/01
Posts: 477
If you sign a contract like that your a fool.

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#556780 - 09/09/09 06:26 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: charlie]
Bring Back Zot Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/05
Posts: 2438
The logical followup questions are:

1. How many copies of a comic does a Bluewater book need to sell before it starts making a profit?

2. How are sales figures calculated?

3. After you get past that threshold of "profitability", how much profit do you make per book?

I can certainly see that if a book makes sells less than 1000 copies, there will not be any profit, but I'm not sure what the threshhold is.

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#556785 - 09/09/09 09:21 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Bring Back Zot]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Apparently the hook is: you do backend deal on a crap comic that Darren Davis (Bluewater) owns and then [maybe] he'll publish your creator-owned comic (also on backend deal). Then the trick to getting around this possible obligation is claiming that the creator-owned pieces "are not fit for publication because they do not meet a professional standard" (quote from the article).

The amazing thing is how un-slick this Davis guy seems to be, and yet people still fall for his bullshit anyway.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#556789 - 09/09/09 09:37 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
THE Anti-Hunter Offline
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Registered: 01/24/02
Posts: 10266
Loc: oceanside,Ca
Ahhh ok, for a minute I thought it was like the Image deal. Where they help you get the published part of it done, but you do the actual book. Except they don't require you to work on any house books either. You actually have to impress them enough to even get your foot in the door.

Maybe Erik Larsen can explain it better on their submission policy.

But it doesn't sound like the Bluewater thing after all..
Damn, need coffee, I'm not making any sense.
As you were.
_________________________
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#556819 - 09/09/09 12:08 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: THE Anti-Hunter]
Bluewater Offline
Junior member

Registered: 03/26/07
Posts: 1
Recently Bluewater has endured a series of attacks regarding its business practices. Bluewater does not engage or condone any such underhanded or untoward activity and refute each and every allegation made against the company and me personally. Much of the perceived conflict comes from a handful of creatives who became disenchanted over the terms of their signed agreements and mistakenly believe they are owed compensation.

Because Bluewater is a small company, our business model is such that artists, writers, and colorists are paid if and when a property (single issue or trade paperback) becomes profitable. When prospective creatives are engaged to work on a property, they are informed of this up front and are asked to review the terms in the written contract. There is no coercion; no strong-armed tactics, no manipulating industry novices. When a book reaches profitability, defined by a specific number of sales, the creatives are paid according to the percentages contained in their contract.

It is unfortunate that not every book Bluewater publishes has reached the profitability threshold. Some, in fact, never sell more than 800 copies. Some are canceled by our national retail distributor Diamond. And some are not fit for publication because they do not meet a professional standard. But that is the risk Bluewater and the creative accepts. I respect the labor these artists, writers and colorists put into creating a title, and am more than willing to share in the profits. However, if a book does poorly, it is Bluewater that absorbs the overwhelming majority of the loss. Yes, there is a risk on behalf of the creatives as well, but they at least have a professional entry for their portfolio that can use to get other jobs in the industry.

It is also unfortunate that certain media types have questioned Bluewater's credibility because they have chosen to take situations out of context or accuse the company of manipulating sales figures. This, of course is impossible, since the sales figures of every issue are a matter of record on the ICV2 site.

I understand that our business model is not for everybody. I understand that there are some people who feel they have been misled or cheated. However, every single person who is owed money that is contractually due has been paid. Many of the creatives noted in the articles that allege non-payment do not state fully why payments were not rendered. Some were fired from books for non-performance, some worked on titles that never reached profitability or were canceled, some have personal reasons to be vindictive. I feel badly that they made incorrect assumptions that led to ill-feelings and anger. I have, at different times, reached out to each of these people to explain the specifics of their situation. Some go away with an understanding; others do not. Because they disagree with the written terms of the contract or have a different interpretation of the events, does not make me a liar or a cheat. I will accept responsibility for not better managing a creative's expectations, but each is made fully aware of all possibilities. I have never withheld a penny from any creative who was due payment.

There are also allegations regarding previous businesses in which I have been involved. It is true that TidalWave Productions declared bankruptcy in 2003. Many make assumptions and unbased claims as to why this happened; and all are wrong. The simple truth is that TidalWave could not sustain based on certain partners reneging on contracted terms. At the time, the company was a part-time endeavor and I worked a standard 9-to-5 job. This employment situation was also true with Bluewater until 2008. But the bottom line is people with no knowledge of the company's administration, creative process or financial status make ill-informed or assumptive comments on some forum or blog that are treated as the gospel truth. This is how reputations get trashed.

Every business has its detractors. And people will believe what they choose. But despite the allegations, accusations, heresay, childish name-calling and angry gossip, Bluewater remains committed to producing quality comic books and graphic novels. It remains steadfast in its current business model of profit-sharing with a variety of talented creatives. And I remain resolute that Bluewater is, and shall continue to be, a reputable business that operates with integrity.

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#556821 - 09/09/09 12:28 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Bluewater]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Yes, we read your form letter in the link.

Nice to see you were finally able to quit your "standard 9-to-5 job" by simply discovering the one-two combo trick of publishing unauthorized biography comics and not paying creators. Very clever!
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#556830 - 09/09/09 02:26 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Kirth Offline
Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 1176
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
..

SO the "story" is FREE cause it's REAL and the art is FREE because the artist NEVER gets paid.

Great business model. Almost as good as Hollywood where they work the accounting so a "hit" movie NEVER makes any NET back-end.

..


Edited by Kirth (09/09/09 02:37 PM)
_________________________
It does not have to be that way. You do not have to act that way. You are hurting people. Please stop.


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#556840 - 09/09/09 03:41 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Bluewater]
THE Anti-Hunter Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/02
Posts: 10266
Loc: oceanside,Ca
Originally Posted By: Bluewater
Recently Bluewater has endured a series of attacks regarding its business practices. Bluewater does not engage or condone any such underhanded or untoward activity and refute each and every allegation made against the company and me personally. Much of the perceived conflict comes from a handful of creatives who became disenchanted over the terms of their signed agreements and mistakenly believe they are owed compensation.

Because Bluewater is a small company, our business model is such that artists, writers, and colorists are paid if and when a property (single issue or trade paperback) becomes profitable. When prospective creatives are engaged to work on a property, they are informed of this up front and are asked to review the terms in the written contract. There is no coercion; no strong-armed tactics, no manipulating industry novices. When a book reaches profitability, defined by a specific number of sales, the creatives are paid according to the percentages contained in their contract.

It is unfortunate that not every book Bluewater publishes has reached the profitability threshold. Some, in fact, never sell more than 800 copies. Some are canceled by our national retail distributor Diamond. And some are not fit for publication because they do not meet a professional standard. But that is the risk Bluewater and the creative accepts. I respect the labor these artists, writers and colorists put into creating a title, and am more than willing to share in the profits. However, if a book does poorly, it is Bluewater that absorbs the overwhelming majority of the loss. Yes, there is a risk on behalf of the creatives as well, but they at least have a professional entry for their portfolio that can use to get other jobs in the industry.

It is also unfortunate that certain media types have questioned Bluewater's credibility because they have chosen to take situations out of context or accuse the company of manipulating sales figures. This, of course is impossible, since the sales figures of every issue are a matter of record on the ICV2 site.

I understand that our business model is not for everybody. I understand that there are some people who feel they have been misled or cheated. However, every single person who is owed money that is contractually due has been paid. Many of the creatives noted in the articles that allege non-payment do not state fully why payments were not rendered. Some were fired from books for non-performance, some worked on titles that never reached profitability or were canceled, some have personal reasons to be vindictive. I feel badly that they made incorrect assumptions that led to ill-feelings and anger. I have, at different times, reached out to each of these people to explain the specifics of their situation. Some go away with an understanding; others do not. Because they disagree with the written terms of the contract or have a different interpretation of the events, does not make me a liar or a cheat. I will accept responsibility for not better managing a creative's expectations, but each is made fully aware of all possibilities. I have never withheld a penny from any creative who was due payment.

There are also allegations regarding previous businesses in which I have been involved. It is true that TidalWave Productions declared bankruptcy in 2003. Many make assumptions and unbased claims as to why this happened; and all are wrong. The simple truth is that TidalWave could not sustain based on certain partners reneging on contracted terms. At the time, the company was a part-time endeavor and I worked a standard 9-to-5 job. This employment situation was also true with Bluewater until 2008. But the bottom line is people with no knowledge of the company's administration, creative process or financial status make ill-informed or assumptive comments on some forum or blog that are treated as the gospel truth. This is how reputations get trashed.

Every business has its detractors. And people will believe what they choose. But despite the allegations, accusations, heresay, childish name-calling and angry gossip, Bluewater remains committed to producing quality comic books and graphic novels. It remains steadfast in its current business model of profit-sharing with a variety of talented creatives. And I remain resolute that Bluewater is, and shall continue to be, a reputable business that operates with integrity.



Bluewater, thanks for coming on and actually weighing in on this topic. Maybe it'll help clear up any misconceptions and let people know where you all really stand in the publishing aspect of our medium. I'm sure it wasn't fun but at least you showed up.
_________________________
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#556845 - 09/09/09 04:16 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: THE Anti-Hunter]
Alexander Ness Offline
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Registered: 09/17/03
Posts: 3840
Loc: Minnesota
I agree Hunter.

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#556847 - 09/09/09 05:11 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: THE Anti-Hunter]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: THE Anti-Hunter
Bluewater, thanks for coming on and actually weighing in on this topic.

Hunter, thanks for quoting the whole post. Try following Peter's link and you just might notice that it was a prepared canned response. There's no way of knowing if "Bluewater" here is actually Darren G. Davis (although I suspect it is) or a stooge; or somebody else just fooling around with the copy/paste function.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#556849 - 09/09/09 05:48 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Kirth Offline
Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 1176
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
..

True enough.

Davis doesn't even return his employees calls, why would he post on Comicon?

..
_________________________
It does not have to be that way. You do not have to act that way. You are hurting people. Please stop.


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#556850 - 09/09/09 05:54 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Kirth]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Kirth
Davis doesn't even return his employees calls, why would he post on Comicon?


If they are not being paid, can they be called employees? Technically?

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#556859 - 09/09/09 06:53 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Joe Lee]
Carlton Donaghe Offline
Member

Registered: 11/23/98
Posts: 1619
Loc: the American Desert
Dear Bluewater, if you have a staff (that is, more than one person), do THEY get paid "if and when" the books become profitable?

Or, which I would bet is the case, do you have PAID EMPLOYEES who earn paychecks?

Why should anyone get paid, including this Davis guy, BEFORE the writers and artists?

How about this-- if you can't get any artists to GIVE you stories to publish, could your secretary and marketing people--that is, your PAID EMPLOYEES--put out a book on their own?
_________________________
Without Wax,
Carlton Donaghe
somewhere along the Rio Grande

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#556867 - 09/09/09 09:12 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: THE Anti-Hunter]
techmann Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 243
We've talked about the comics publisher Bluewater Productions a few times around here. Now Rich Johnston has a new article about them and the contracts they offer freelancers:

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2009/09/07/getting-in-deep-with-bluewater-productions/

Apparently, most of their creators don't get an initial page rate, but work for a percentage of the profits. This is fine if a book does well, but it can result in the creators earning nothing if the book sells poorly or is cancelled. Also, it's an unusual arrangement in a work-for-hire setting, where the creator does not own the rights to the work.

There are lots more details in the article.

(I should note that our friend and frequent Comicon poster Pat Broderick has worked for Bluewater and expressed his satisfaction with the deal he got from them. It is not my intention to stir up dirty laundry here, Pat. I genuinely want to see Bluewater succeed. But this is an interesting topic, and I think people will want to know about it.)


Well .. I guess a few people are waiting for my reply to this… here you go.
I’m happy with my contract with Bluewater..HAPPY… here’s why. Darren was up front with me from the get-go. And we worked out a deal that I could not get with any other publisher, independent or otherwise, period. And I tried. I shopped my properties around. One publisher did want one of my properties, but the economy changed and he wasn’t as secure as he was in the beginning. I shopped it to one of the top four and was told that my style was dated and writing cliché. Cool again. No problem. It was his decision; his style is also dated in a style very much attached to two very popular artist of the same era. But it’s cool. And that company has a fixed profit set in all of their deals with creator owned properties, which they accept. I offered it to another independent company and they accepted it but wanted to own TOTALLY into infinity. Not such a good deal, afterall I’m still being screwed by one of the big two over a simple royalty deal that they know they owe me. And they did invite me to sue them in the county in New York State where they registered. So that’s an ongoing process. Darren was the most honest upfront gentleman to deal with and my properties will be published under his banner next year. I do not know the details of others contract deals with him. But let me remind you that Diamond changed their independent publisher policies a while back. That meant that any publisher whose orders did not meet Diamonds minimum level would be dropped by diamond. What made diamond change this policy is their business. Some people got very hurt by this change across the board. But I’m sure that it was a sound decision on Diamond part to do this. Currently I’m working on my second property for them and all are being very patient with my production pace. I’ve also been hurt by the downturn in the economy. Thank you President Bush very much for that hit. My hours teaching was cut from 40 hr’s a week to 15. But I saw this coming {Who didn’t last year} I have two 30 yr old sons who had to move back in with me because they both had careers connected to the housing industry. I’ll get my BFA later this year in November and more opportunities will open up for me in education. These are hard times but if your not willing to adapt then you will get hurt period. And hell,,, I’m 55 years old… I lost a very good living back in 95 along with many other talented people. And we’re still hurting. I climbed into a vodka bottle for a couple of years over it. I lost close to a half million in property. IT SUCKED,, We all saw it coming individually but no one would listen to us. HOW MANY MULTIPLE COVERS FOR AN ISSUE OF X-MEN IS ETHICAL!!! Yet you all bought your issue of the death of Superman. Even after Harlan Ellison got on the air and said”hey look,, Supes has died how many times? 25 or 30!!!
Point is this. The Internet allows people to bitch…. And an article about an issue that hasn’t been substantiated is still hearsay. But put it on some forum and it gives it weight.
Allen… No Vincent Price presents was not Green Lantern, or Doom 2099, or the Micronauts. It was Vincent Price Presents for Christ sake. I liked it. I drew it, it was fun. William Shatner’s Man o War is Bill Shatner’s Man O War. I personally like that mans body of work over my lifetime. Still do, and feel privileged to be working on this book period.
Final word on my part about this is this. When you go into a contracted deal READ THE CONTRACT for heavens sake. Work hard,. And still understand that this isn’t the 80’s or 90’s. Those days are long behind us now. And if your book isn’t selling as well as your publishers political books. Quite BITCHING…neither did my Vincent Price book, and I’m not slamming the guy.
You’re pretty pathetic.
Pat Broderick

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#556872 - 09/09/09 09:48 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
Peter Urkowitz Offline
Member

Registered: 08/28/00
Posts: 3231
Loc: Salem, MA, USA
Pat, thanks very much for commenting! I'm sure everyone here wishes you much success. And your speaking out in defense of Bluewater should carry a lot of weight in their favor.

Dang, though, it must really be tough times in this industry, when publishers have to resort to business models like this. Best of luck, though, hope it does pay off in the end.

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#556880 - 09/09/09 10:35 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Peter Urkowitz]
techmann Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 243
Pat, thanks very much for commenting! I'm sure everyone here wishes you much success. And your speaking out in defense of Bluewater should carry a lot of weight in their favor.

Dang, though, it must really be tough times in this industry, when publishers have to resort to business models like this. Best of luck, though, hope it does pay off in the end.


It’s not a statement about the state of the industry. As you’ve so clearly pointed out. So let’s put it clearer terms, shall we? It’s a statement about the quality of the man running the ship at DC. All he has to do is pick up his phone and say ”Pay this man every dime we owe him for every use of his designs and characters for every show, animated series,Action figure, Game piece, reprint,and sales of every DVD, sold at any outlet from the first airing, It’s your departments job, that’s why you get paid”
Seems simple doesn’t it PAUL!!!!
Pat Broderick

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#556883 - 09/09/09 10:48 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
charlie Offline
Member

Registered: 05/18/01
Posts: 477
Originally Posted By: techmann
These are hard times but if your not willing to adapt then you will get hurt period. And hell,,, I’m 55 years old… I lost a very good living back in 95 along with many other talented people. And we’re still hurting. I climbed into a vodka bottle for a couple of years over it. I lost close to a half million in property. IT SUCKED,, We all saw it coming individually but no one would listen to us. HOW MANY MULTIPLE COVERS FOR AN ISSUE OF X-MEN IS ETHICAL!!! Yet you all bought your issue of the death of Superman. Even after Harlan Ellison got on the air and said”hey look,, Supes has died how many times? 25 or 30!!!
Point is this. The Internet allows people to bitch…. And an article about an issue that hasn’t been substantiated is still hearsay. But put it on some forum and it gives it weight.
Allen… No Vincent Price presents was not Green Lantern, or Doom 2099, or the Micronauts. It was Vincent Price Presents for Christ sake. I liked it. I drew it, it was fun. William Shatner’s Man o War is Bill Shatner’s Man O War. I personally like that mans body of work over my lifetime. Still do, and feel privileged to be working on this book period.
Final word on my part about this is this. When you go into a contracted deal READ THE CONTRACT for heavens sake. Work hard,. And still understand that this isn’t the 80’s or 90’s. Those days are long behind us now. And if your book isn’t selling as well as your publishers political books. Quite BITCHING…neither did my Vincent Price book, and I’m not slamming the guy.
You’re pretty pathetic.
Pat Broderick


Not of of us bought the death of superman and such books. There was a time when a large chunk of readers didn't even buy books based on traditional characters like Batman and Spider-man. Many of us bought books based on the talent involved during that time. That audience was not cultivated enough.

Anyhow, not familiar with bluewater but your contract includes ownership, and when you own something it's worth the risk. Doing work for hire under the contract described seems foolish


Edited by charlie (09/09/09 10:57 PM)

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#556886 - 09/09/09 11:14 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: charlie]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
It's a pretty straight-forward contract, and no one is holding a gun to anyone's head to sign, but it does seem like a pretty bad deal unless like Pat, you have an existing fanbase, name recognition, or something else going for the book.

Wouldn't most unknown creators be better off self-publishing? Or if the goal is to eventually work for Marvel or DC, is ANY published work with a real publisher, worth it for the credit and experience?

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#556889 - 09/09/09 11:25 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Joe Lee]
Bring Back Zot Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/05
Posts: 2438
I appreciate Pat Broderick's response. Rich Johnston should interview Pat to get a balanced picture.

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#556890 - 09/09/09 11:37 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
In the comments section on Johnston's article there are a couple of people who make the comment about the general poor quality of work that Bluewater is willing to publish. Technically not the issue, but I think really that it is.

The artwork on their best-selling books — the unauthorized biographies — is atrocious. Why not hand those high profile projects to someone like Pat who can actually draw? Because people (or maybe just the retailers, I haven't heard the sell-through numbers) are buying those books for the subjects' name recognition, not the talent. Davis knows this. Then when those crappy hacks want him to publish their creator-owned work, well, that's "not fit for publication because [it does] not meet a professional standard."

Either the creators own the copyrights to the work, or they're contract labor and they get paid upfront and they're done. What Davis is offering is conditional IOU's. Anyone who just wants their work published for recognition could just as easily put something up on a POD site like indyplanet.com, or do a webcomic on Comics Genesis or Drunk Duck and make money selling merchandise through Cafe Press.

Pat's caught in a tough spot here, and that's what's coloring his opinion of Davis/Bluewater.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#556903 - 09/10/09 08:59 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
techmann Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 243
In the comments section on Johnston's article there are a couple of people who make the comment about the general poor quality of work that Bluewater is willing to publish. Technically not the issue, but I think really that it is.

The artwork on their best-selling books — the unauthorized biographies — is atrocious. Why not hand those high profile projects to someone like Pat who can actually draw? Because people (or maybe just the retailers, I haven't heard the sell-through numbers) are buying those books for the subjects' name recognition, not the talent. Davis knows this. Then when those crappy hacks want him to publish their creator-owned work, well, that's "not fit for publication because [it does] not meet a professional standard."

Either the creators own the copyrights to the work, or they're contract labor and they get paid upfront and they're done. What Davis is offering is conditional IOU's. Anyone who just wants their work published for recognition could just as easily put something up on a POD site like indyplanet.com, or do a webcomic on Comics Genesis or Drunk Duck and make money selling merchandise through Cafe Press.

Pat's caught in a tough spot here, and that's what's coloring his opinion of Davis/Bluewater.



Goood Morning.
If I say “Apple” someone’s going to say “Oranges”.. Bluewater is a company starting from the ground up and has faced the same challenges that all startup companies faced. Tight startup capital, and finding their spot and market. Their business plan is restrictive because there are no page rates for the creative staff while the properties are in production. The payment comes after sales have been made. Everyone, including yours truly, knows this going into this. This is why I said at the beginning that I want to help a young company grow. Bluewater has since proven to me that they are an open-minded company by being one of the first and most successful companies moving into the political biography comic book market. Darren knew that if comics are to survive they have to offer product that can reach out beyond the standard market out there and cross over into regions outside of the normal distribution range. He has found success in that area with sales that would make the big 4 wish they were seeing on there non-flag ship books. If other publishers had this vision, I.E. Future comics and Crossgen, they might still be around today. Both of these companies produced technically good products but both were hampered by their leadership’s vision and failed.
During my time in the industry I’ve seen both of the big two produce some real crap as far as my own personal taste was concerned yet some of these creative people grew into some really talented people. Some are still in the industry today and some aren’t, and I wish them well in whatever they’re doing. When I was a younger artist I was more critical of the art I saw, but I’m older now, more seasoned, and have come to realize that a person should be judged by how hard they work at what they do and less so on what their work looks like. I’ve come to realize this by reviewing my own history of work and seeing some really badly drawn books in my past, and also by watching the development of my students through my years as a teacher. Being and artist, as I tell my students, is a curse, It’s that nagging voice in your head that will not leave you alone. It’s a demon that tickles your spine when you’ve finished a really nice piece of art, yet screams at you when you want to do something else. It’s a jealous master that never gives you a moments peace. This is what “colors” my position.
I have often wondered how in the world we as creative people survive. And its through companies like Bluewater, and people like Darren, that makes survival possible. I’m still behind them


Pat Broderick

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#556909 - 09/10/09 09:32 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
Alex Art Buchet Offline
Member

Registered: 01/31/09
Posts: 142
Please read Steve Grant's comments:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=22868

Two further remarks:

1) If there is only back-payment, it should be a percentage of income from dollar one, not of profits. Anything else is wholly unethical.

2) If a creator ends up being paid nothing, then there is no consideration and the contract is void. The rights revert to the creator. That's contract 101.

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#556917 - 09/10/09 12:23 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: techmann
Bluewater is a company starting from the ground up

Not really. Bluewater is the remains of another company called Tidal Wave that went bankrupt.


Originally Posted By: techmann
The payment comes after sales have been made.

If a profitability threshold is met. Which, as of yet, has not been defined.


Originally Posted By: techmann
Darren knew that if comics are to survive they have to offer product that can reach out beyond the standard market out there and cross over into regions outside of the normal distribution range.

Are you familiar with Bill Marks/Vortex and his NASCAR comics? How about Hart Fisher/Boneyard and his Jeffrey Dahmer comics? There's really only so many of these that the market will consume before it becomes saturated. Marvel scored a huge hit with their Life of John Paul II bio-comic. Why didn't they try to milk that market more? Because they have more market savvy than Darren Davis, Bill Marks or Hart Fisher, that's why.


Originally Posted By: techmann
If other publishers had this vision, I.E. Future comics and Crossgen, they might still be around today.

Other publisher do have this vision. Noticed how many Obama comics there've been lately?

Read the Steven Grant column. The Bluewater piece is about halfway down the page.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#556918 - 09/10/09 12:46 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Kirth Offline
Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 1176
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
..

I HAVE to ask.

So, Broderick...did YOU get front-end payment? Or are you hoping against hope that William Shatner's name will sell books? Vincent Price?

As far as I can tell neither of those books broke the top 300. and that's BELOW sales of 1K.

There is NO PROFIT for ANYONE below two or three thousand. Unless people are smoking your books like crack.

..
..
_________________________
It does not have to be that way. You do not have to act that way. You are hurting people. Please stop.


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#556930 - 09/10/09 02:41 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Kirth]
techmann Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 243
I HAVE to ask.

So, Broderick...did YOU get front-end payment? Or are you hoping against hope that William Shatner's name will sell books? Vincent Price?

As far as I can tell neither of those books broke the top 300. and that's BELOW sales of 1K.

There is NO PROFIT for ANYONE below two or three thousand. Unless people are smoking your books like crack.



Gentlemen
My contract is between myself and Darren at Bluewater and the details will always remain private.
I accepted the Vincent Price job because, as I have stated on other post here, I enjoyed doing something other than the standard superhero concept all of the time. Also Allen I stand by my post here on this thread. Yes other companies have ventured into other subject. But it’s pointless arguing with you, my friend Allen ; I recognize your points as valid ones to you from your perspective. Do I feel that the books I’m doing for them will sell better because they have attached famous personas? It can’t hurt. But also there are the possibilities of additional reward for doing the jobs well. These rewards may, or may not develop as time goes on,
Finally people, I have already completed two concepts, written, penciled, colored at least two issues of one of them, so when they hit Bluewaters schedule it will give us enough lead time to promote them and we’ll wait and see how they’ll do. But at least this time I won’t get as screwed as I have been by DC.
Ownership works both ways. If something fails it’s a bastard child. If it succeeds it has a thousand fathers. Since I’m doing everything on my own properties I’ll take full responsibility for their failure.
And if they succeed then I’ll thank Bluewater for the opportunity they’ve given me to produce the books for them. But what you won’t find is me blaming them for the failures of my work.
Pat Broderick

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#556944 - 09/10/09 06:34 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
Kirth Offline
Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 1176
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
..

Fair enough.

Still, Shatner's books have NEVER sold. Even Star Trek geeks didn't buy Tek War.

Those books Nimoy had his hand in didn't amount to much, either.

..
_________________________
It does not have to be that way. You do not have to act that way. You are hurting people. Please stop.


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#556964 - 09/10/09 09:36 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
charlie Offline
Member

Registered: 05/18/01
Posts: 477
Originally Posted By: techmann

When I was a younger artist I was more critical of the art I saw, but I’m older now, more seasoned, and have come to realize that a person should be judged by how hard they work at what they do and less so on what their work looks like.

Pat Broderick


Unfortunatley we don't know how hard somebody works, only what the book looks like.

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#556970 - 09/10/09 11:33 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: charlie]
Kirth Offline
Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 1176
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
..

How hard does Hitch work? Because his books alternate between pretty, pretty and just plain ugly.

..
_________________________
It does not have to be that way. You do not have to act that way. You are hurting people. Please stop.


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#559020 - 10/14/09 07:26 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Kirth]
Monsterverse1 Offline
Junior member

Registered: 10/14/09
Posts: 15
Hello. This is Kerry Gammill. You may remember me as penciller of comics like Powerman & Iron Fist, Marvel Team-up and Superman back in the '80s and '90s. I found this site and this thread because I was looking for information on contracts for comic creators. This is all very interesting because I'm currently in the process of becoming an independent publisher and have been facing the financial realities of the comics market in today's economy.

Our books will be horror anthologies and we have been fairly successful so far in attracting some major talent based on the chance to work on something fun and cool (and short) even though they will probably see little or no monetary reward. However, it becomes a problem when dealing with lesser known people who don't have high-paying day jobs and who can't afford to work for free. Although we would love for the book to be very successful, it's almost certain to do little more than break even at best, which means if we pay much for art and stories, we will definitely lose money which makes writing a workable business plan kinda tough.

Unfortunately, an arrangement like Bluewater's seems to be about the only way to get by when operating at this level. So let me ask a question to some of you who disagree with Bluewater's business practices. If you were in my shoes and wanted to publish comics but you knew that, from all indications, it would be next to impossible to actually make money on the books, what kind of contract would you offer? A meager page rate and a work for hire deal giving you all the rights? Nothing up front but a few bucks if the book makes a profit? No pay but complete creator ownership? Some pay and shared ownership with the company? What do you think would be fair to both freelancer and publisher?

I know the Bluewater contract may seem like it gives a raw deal to some artists and writers (even though they were aware of the deal from the beginning), but if you were running a small comics company and you knew a lot of the books you put out probably would not make a profit, what in the contracts would you do differently? I'm anxious to hear your thoughts. Thanks

Kerry Gammill
www.monsterverse.com



Edited by Monsterverse1 (10/14/09 07:29 PM)

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#559021 - 10/14/09 07:32 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Monsterverse1]
Paul W. Sondersted, Jr. Offline
Member

Registered: 07/22/01
Posts: 4593
Loc: Sparks, Nevada, United States
Welcome to Comicon.com, Mr. Gammill. Always enjoyed your work. I look forward to checking out your new stuff.

Bela Lugosi's Tales from the Grave? What an interesting concept! Early 2010? Not too far off!

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#559022 - 10/14/09 08:03 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.]
Kirth Offline
Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 1176
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
..

Nice to have you here.

I think the point we were making with the Bluewater contracts is that they SEEMED to be a contract that laid all the BENEFIT to the Company and all the WORK to the Creator.

An artist doesn't live in a fairyland of free food and electricity. While "doing" the work, the artist needs to LIVE and pay his bills like all of us. Page rates are the way most artist do this.

And girlfriends with "good" jobs.

Companies sometimes view page rates as money out the window, but really it's an investment in the final product. If the Company has a true business model and intends to market and SELL product, then page rates are a manufacturing expense, like shrink wrap or postage or paying to get your books listed in Diamond.

If the Comapany is just a "farm" to pry intellectual property rights from creative people and put it in the hands of "money men", then that's not a true business model, that's a scam.

And THAT'S what Bluewater SEEMED to be doing.

You have to give the artists page rates and a cut of the IP rights. That's how you get GOOD product. An artist who doesn't get these things MIGHT try to scam YOU, the same way he MIGHT feel you are trying to scam him.

There are quite a few artists with decent product who have posted here to advertise their creator-owned properties. They have the DRIVE to WORK, they just need the backing of a print house who won't attempt to "rob" them when the deal is done.

..


Edited by Kirth (10/14/09 08:05 PM)
_________________________
It does not have to be that way. You do not have to act that way. You are hurting people. Please stop.


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#559023 - 10/14/09 08:08 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Kirth]
Kirth Offline
Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 1176
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
..

There's a guy on here with a horror/ufo web-comic that looked as good as anything I've seen from Charlton or Gold key in the 1970s.

THIS guy:

http://agitainment.com/ics/

..


Edited by Kirth (10/14/09 08:13 PM)
_________________________
It does not have to be that way. You do not have to act that way. You are hurting people. Please stop.


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#559028 - 10/14/09 08:51 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Monsterverse1]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: Monsterverse1
If you were in my shoes and wanted to publish comics

...I wouldn't. We need comics creators, not comics publishers. Do something that is meaningful to you and submit it to real publishers, get it in real book stores.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#559036 - 10/14/09 11:03 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Kirth]
Monsterverse1 Offline
Junior member

Registered: 10/14/09
Posts: 15
Originally Posted By: Kirth
I think the point we were making with the Bluewater contracts is that they SEEMED to be a contract that laid all the BENEFIT to the Company and all the WORK to the Creator.


But what I'm asking is this: What specifically would you do differently if the details of the contract were up to you? I'm not trying to either defend or criticize Bluewater's contracts. I'm looking for input on what an ideal small press contract should contain that would cover the contributions and risks of both the publisher and the talent in a situation where making a profit from the comic itself is unlikely. Any ideas? Thanks.

Kerry Gammill
www.monsterverse.com

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#559038 - 10/15/09 12:08 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Monsterverse1]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: Monsterverse1
...in a situation where making a profit from the comic itself is unlikely.

So what's the point? Make it a website. You'll get more readers and it'll cost you less money. If you're so wrapped up in the notion of killing trees, you need to shoot a little higher.

The only Direct Market comics company that got the deal right — advances, ownership, production standards — was Pacific Comics. There were also Eclipse, Comico, Kitchen Sink and Vortex that were kinda-sorta good. Figure out why they failed and you're halfway there.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#559042 - 10/15/09 12:48 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Monsterverse1 Offline
Junior member

Registered: 10/14/09
Posts: 15
I was going to respond to you, Allen, but I looked through some of your other posts and see it would be pointless. Anyone want to actually address the subject of contracts?
_________________________
Kerry Gammill
www.monsterverse.com

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#559044 - 10/15/09 02:42 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Monsterverse1]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Hey, fuck you too, Kerry.

You want to address the question of why you're worried about contracts if there's no money to be made?
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#559047 - 10/15/09 02:53 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
IvanJim Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/01
Posts: 2865
Loc: Los Angeles
Kerry-

Whatever Allen may or may not have written in other posts, he raises a valid point here. Stating that you don't respect the speaker doesn't negate his question or his point and it creates the impression that you can't or won't address a difficult question. Why not just address the point he makes and if he doesn't respond to YOU respectfully, or to your point, then dismiss him?

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#559054 - 10/15/09 03:35 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: IvanJim]
Monsterverse1 Offline
Junior member

Registered: 10/14/09
Posts: 15
Hey, thanks for the helpful discussion about freelance contracts, guys. This has been great. See you around.
_________________________
Kerry Gammill
www.monsterverse.com

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#559056 - 10/15/09 04:47 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Monsterverse1]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Monsterverse1
Hey, thanks for the helpful discussion about freelance contracts, guys. This has been great. See you around.


This board is like many things in life, you get out of it what you put into it.

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#559058 - 10/15/09 05:40 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Monsterverse1]
Bring Back Zot Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/05
Posts: 2438
Originally Posted By: Monsterverse1
But what I'm asking is this: What specifically would you do differently if the details of the contract were up to you? I'm not trying to either defend or criticize Bluewater's contracts. I'm looking for input on what an ideal small press contract should contain that would cover the contributions and risks of both the publisher and the talent in a situation where making a profit from the comic itself is unlikely. Any ideas? Thanks.

Kerry Gammill
www.monsterverse.com



First, welcome, and I hope you haven't left before reading this.

I'm not sure what's fair. I'm a reader, not a creator. As a creator, you probably have a better sense of what's fair than I do. Here are my thoughts however,

Given that you don't have a ton of money to offer someone up front as "work for hire", and that you probably want to hold on to the characters created as your company's intellectual property, I would suggest giving the creator a low page rate, but a good royalty rate on the revenues from the initial press run and subsequent reprints. That way, after you clear your costs for putting out the book, if the book becomes a "hit", both you and the artist do well.

I think that for a small company to succeed in the long run, it needs to retain ownership of its characters and use them for franchising. If you spend all of your money promoting a another person's creator-owned title, then that creator/creation may bolt for another bigger company down the road. As long as you are clear up front about the contract, and provide reasonable royalties, you and the writer/artist might do well over time.

Another question is "how can you sell and market your book"? IF you only sell 2,000 copies of your book, it will be hard to make a profit and leave anything for the artist. Unfortunately, many comics, even by well established companies don't do much better than this.





Edited by Bring Back Zot (10/15/09 09:40 AM)

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#559059 - 10/15/09 07:21 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Bring Back Zot]
techmann Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 243
Hello everyone, and let me take a moment to say hi to Kerry. It’s been a long time since we last spoke Kerry, how the hell have you been since Texas? It’s been a struggle for me since I moved back to Florida, but these last 10 years has been a struggle for us all. You’ve poised a good question here and there’s no clear-cut answer, but I’ll give you my opinion if you’re interested. My deal with Bluewater is a good one, if my books sell low I make a little profit, if they sell well I make the same percentage and make more. It all starts at issue one. And I get paid for every time its collected and sold in any format perpetually into the future for the rest of my life. And for those interested I DID GET PAID FOR VINCENT PRICE. It wasn’t a lot but I didn’t expect a lot. But I’ll be paid again, and again, as stated in my contract.
The problems in this market are many folds and the first is distribution. The powers which control the distribution still has a strangle hold on it and those powers are not Diamond alone. The limited number of outlets means that the distributor has a huge influence over what they sell and the companies that distribute through Diamond, not Diamond itself, control that interest. There is one way around this, which is to bypass them all together and go directly to trade size and distribute through the bookstores, Internet, and directly from a location of your own choosing. The second is to keep your cost low, this can be achieved by offering a black and white product only. The cost of color is still just too high and makes the breakeven a huge burden. I’ve priced printing my self and the best deal is still overseas in Asia even with the trans Pacific shipping involved. If its black and white you could turn a decent profit. Remember Warren publishing did just that and did very well for a long time. Also format matters. If it’s a magazine it can be picked up by distributors other than Diamond and be distributed through bookstores, grocery chains, and transportation hubs. Get established there first and Diamond will be contacting you to distribute your product and offer a great deal if you go exclusively with them. But don’t go for it because then they’ll be in a position of controlling the future of your company through their distribution. Remember they’re always in the big two’s pocket and will do whatever they direct them to do about their independent clients as they’ve consistently done in the past.
I don’t recommend publishing through the Internet as a medium for these reasons. Its profitable only through the advertising revenue the site generates. It offers the product for free which is a BAD thing. And until that changes it will continue to destroy whole industries.
Stay in touch Kerry, maybe there’s something we can do together in your future
Pat Broderick

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#559064 - 10/15/09 11:09 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
Bring Back Zot Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/05
Posts: 2438
A great "work for hire" story, told to me by a musician friend.

The jazz saxophonist Phil Woods got offered a studio gig to do a sax solo for a song by a pop singer. He got offered either a choice of either "work for hire" fee (which at the time was a few hundred dollars), or the option of getting a percentage of the song's profits. Being a studio musician, he decided to take the sure thing and pocketed the money.

The song was "Just the Way You Are" by Billy Joel, and both the single and the album went to sell millions of copies. Woods' solo is now one of the best known pop-jazz sax solos ever. Kind of like Siegel and Shuster signing away Superman.



Edited by Bring Back Zot (10/15/09 11:50 AM)

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#559065 - 10/15/09 11:15 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Bring Back Zot]
Lawson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Ouch!

Well, I'm sure he appreciated that $250 check.

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#559066 - 10/15/09 11:30 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Monsterverse1]
IvanJim Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/01
Posts: 2865
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: Monsterverse1
Hey, thanks for the helpful discussion about freelance contracts, guys. This has been great. See you around.


Well that doesn't sound terribly conducive to actually having an actual discussion. It's almost as though you want to ask a question and get a specific answer as opposed to getting other people's impressions and opinions, and that your attitude inhibits you accepting answers that don't fall into the exact parameters you've envisioned.

Is it possible (if you're still here) that you aren't really interested in any opinion other than your own or one that agrees with yours?

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#559070 - 10/15/09 11:46 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Bring Back Zot]
IvanJim Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/01
Posts: 2865
Loc: Los Angeles
Originally Posted By: Bring Back Zot
A great "work for hire" story, told to me by a musician friend.

The jazz saxophonist Phil Woods got offered a studio gig to do a sax solo for a song by a not so well known pop singer. He got offered either a choice of either "work for hire" fee (which at the time was a few hundred dollars), or the option of getting a percentage of the song's profits. Being a studio musician, he decided to take the sure thing and pocketed the money.

The song was "Just the Way You Are" by Billy Joel, and both the single and the album went to sell millions of copies. Woods' solo is now one of the best known pop-jazz sax solos ever. Kind of like Siegel and Shuster signing away Superman.



I like this story. It's fun and it's cautionary.

The only problem with it is that "Just the Way You Are is from Billy Joel's 5th album, and 3 of the previous 4 albums had gone gold on the way to platinum at the point "The Stranger" was recorded. The story may well be accurate but if so it shows a marked lack of research on the part of either Woods or his manager.

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#559073 - 10/15/09 11:55 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: IvanJim]
Bring Back Zot Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/05
Posts: 2438
Billy Joel himself on "The Stranger", from Jazzwax.com


This is from a CNN article posted on the web in July 2008 about Joel and The Stranger:

"[Billy Joel] acknowledges that The Stranger could have been his last stand: 'I didn't know this at the time, but had it not been a successful album, the label [Columbia] probably would have dropped me. 'Cause you have to remember, this was my fifth album without having had a major hit,' Joel says."



Edited by Bring Back Zot (10/15/09 12:13 PM)

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#559074 - 10/15/09 12:14 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Bring Back Zot]
techmann Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 243
Well here’s the problem guys, sometimes trying to get an informed answer here is tantamount to trying to push through a mosh pit to get a better view. Anyone who has not been here before is very likely to avoid coming back because of the bruises they might receive. I like Allen and everyone else here. But some of you guys always do this. Come off hostile in your replies. And when confronted over it, and your past postings, always state "Fuck You" and that “well ..it’s The comicon message board”. well...until that’s addressed we’ll take these unwarranted bruises. I just hope that Kerry checks back.
Pat Broderick

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#559075 - 10/15/09 12:16 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Bring Back Zot]
IvanJim Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/01
Posts: 2865
Loc: Los Angeles
I don't doubt that Billy Joel told that story, but sales charts make it seem apocryphal. Especially considering that Piano Man had been a hit and gotten significant air play (and let's be perfectly clear that it's not you, BBZ, that I'm doubting).

Still and all, I agree with you about Woods' solo being a very important part of the song and it may well have been a major contributing factor to it's popularity, but I still say that either Woods or his manager really should have looked a lot closer at the remuneration offers before settling on the flat fee, and Woods' manager deserved either a reprimand or worse for either making this type of decision or allowing his client to make the foolish choice.

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#559076 - 10/15/09 12:19 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: IvanJim]
techmann Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 243
Hey, fuck you too, Kerry.

You want to address the question of why you're worried about contracts if there's no money to be made?
by Allen ...

Well that doesn't sound terribly conducive to actually having an actual discussion. It's almost as though you want to ask a question and get a specific answer as opposed to getting other people's impressions and opinions, and that your attitude inhibits you accepting answers that don't fall into the exact parameters you've envisioned.

Is it possible (if you're still here) that you aren't really interested in any opinion other than your own or one that agrees with yours?
by Ivan..
get my point guys? and Steve, and Rick?
Pat Broderick

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#559078 - 10/15/09 01:19 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Eh, boy...

First off, learn to use the Quote function, Pat. Parsing your words from others' is quite a chore. Figuring out the whole concept of "paragraphs" might serve you well, also.

Now, it was Kerry who insulted me, Pat, in his third post here, saying essentially "fuck you" to me. I just don't mince words.

He thinks he can come on here and have the exact discussion he wants (tagging onto another thread rather than starting his own, btw) in a matter of hours? How egotistical.

The call for the mods is very juvenile on your part, Pat. What do you want them to do? Ban me? Issue a warning? Give me a good scolding? Grow up.

What we've got here with "Bela Lugosi Presents" is a project without sustainability. John Cassaday and Bruce Timm may have tossed off a little thing to get it started, but what will issue five look like? My guess is a bunch of no-name amateurs drawing reject Joe Landsdale scripts (if the the Papercutz Tales from the Crypt is any indicator). Kerry may have the inspiration to do the project because he thinks it would be "cool," thinks it's clever to use Lugosi in the Crypt Keeper role, or whatever. But look at what happened to the content of Eerie and Creepy over time, and Warren actually paid those creators.

Since they're using the "Lugosi International" logo, I'm assuming those folks are getting paid:

http://www.lugosi.com/business_contact.html
http://www.heatlicensing.com/html/bela_lugosi.html

So what the issue is with paying the people doing the work, I don't know. If you want to see the work exist, pay somebody to do it. Really, it's that simple. You don't have or don't want to spend the money? Move on and forget the whole thing. Trying to come up with a contract that essentially states the talent is working for free only increases the likelihood that somebody will slash the tires on the publisher's car (hey, maybe that's why so many of these amateur guys they hire are foreigners).
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#559083 - 10/15/09 01:47 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Damian T. Lloyd Offline
Junior member

Registered: 02/29/08
Posts: 14
So far, I see Pat Broderick arguing that, because he got a deal (whose terms he declines to divulge) that's not offered to other people, the company is okay; and Kerry Gammill argue that he can't afford to be in business if he has to pay his workers. The first is (shall we say) unintelligent, and the latter is reprehensible.

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#559084 - 10/15/09 01:47 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: IvanJim]
Monsterverse1 Offline
Junior member

Registered: 10/14/09
Posts: 15
Originally Posted By: IvanJim
It's almost as though you want to ask a question and get a specific answer as opposed to getting other people's impressions and opinions, and that your attitude inhibits you accepting answers that don't fall into the exact parameters you've envisioned.


The only parameters I envisioned were that the feedback be about the question I brought up. There seemed to be plenty of criticism of Bluewater's contracts. Since I'm in a similar situation and would like to avoid the kind of complaints some of Bluewater's freelancers have, I wanted to see how you guys thought the contracts could be written. Simply telling me not to publish and questioning my motives does nothing to address the problem of small publisher freelance contracts.

Bring Back Zot, thanks for your comments. And Pat, it's good to talk to you again. Thanks for your valuable insight.



Edited by Monsterverse1 (10/15/09 01:50 PM)
_________________________
Kerry Gammill
www.monsterverse.com

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#559085 - 10/15/09 02:25 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Monsterverse1]
MightyQuin Offline
Member

Registered: 01/26/02
Posts: 1068
Loc: Tallahassee,FL
Pat Broderick's,and others too,advice regarding distribution and formats are obviously well informed,but I say offer even a meager page rate and then percentages for higher sales,reissuing and repackaging of material on top of that. A page rate of,say,$75 for a finished page might be insulting-- well,go ahead and insult me! It insures that I get something for my efforts and if there's success,I share in that too. Actually,I'm sure you'll get lots of upper tier creators who will want something short to work on in the downtime between bigger assignments. Also,the b&w format would be a huge cost saver and could be a big winner as well. With today's higher quality paper and printing,artists working in a variety of media would have much crisper production than the Warren days. If you've already commissioned some color work,you could parcel it out with a color 'insert' each issue as Warren did. Good luck on this and-- Basil Gogos cover?!!-- you seem to be doing it right so far!


Edited by MightyQuin (10/15/09 02:29 PM)

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#559086 - 10/15/09 02:49 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: MightyQuin]
techmann Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 243
Point 1.
Well actually you’ve just made my point for me. The fact that I’ll use the command c command v function has no significance what so ever.
Point 2.
My not divulging the details of my contract shows professionalism.
Point 3.
If it’s the baiting only that these message boards are good for. Then fine.
Point 4.
All opinions are subjective. But are they all constructive? nope!
but their sure as hell entertaining.
Point 5.
I'm in the mosh pit again.
Pat Broderick

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#559087 - 10/15/09 03:01 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
shjonescrk Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 1351
Loc: Airdrie, Scotland
Bela Lugosi? That's just so old. Heck, it was old when I was young. My only advice - do something that's up to date, instead of harping back.

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#559088 - 10/15/09 03:31 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: shjonescrk]
Budman Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/01
Posts: 1867
Loc: Penfield, Ny USA
Wow! Kerry Gammill is in the house! Loved your run on Superman.
_________________________
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#559091 - 10/15/09 04:50 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Monsterverse1]
Bring Back Zot Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/05
Posts: 2438
Originally Posted By: Monsterverse1
Bring Back Zot, thanks for your comments.


Here are a couple of more suggestions. In checking out the website, it's pretty clear this is a labor of love for you.

1. Don't underestimate your own selling power. You had a great run writing and drawing comics in the 80's and 90's, both on Power Man and later on Superman. Even though you've been out of the loop a while, I'm sure there are fans that still remember your work. When this is coming out, get on various websites (Comic book resources, IMWAN, comicon, etc) and market yourself and the book. Sure, you might bump into a few ornery fans, but that's part of the game.

2. Consider other collaborators. Pat Broderick is a good example. It sounds like you two know each other. Assuming you like each other, maybe Pat could guest-draw a short story.

3. If Gene Colan is healthy enough, see if you can get him to draw a cover. When I think Lugosi, I think Dracula. When I think Dracula, I think Colan. He is reachable at www.genecolan.com

4. Contracts are meant to protect people conducting a transaction. Even more basic is trust and decency. If you treat people honestly and openly, and both sides know what they are getting into, then the contract is only there to codify your trust.

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#559092 - 10/15/09 04:53 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: techmann
The fact that I’ll use the command c command v function has no significance what so ever.

When it makes your posts difficult to read, and there's a quote function at the bottom of every post, yes it does.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
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#559093 - 10/15/09 05:01 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Monsterverse1]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: Monsterverse1
The only parameters I envisioned were that the feedback be about the question I brought up.

Hey, and the only parameters I envisioned were where everyone sends me money via Paypal.

There are several horror anthology books on the market right now, or recently in the past — most notably Tales from the Crypt (Papercutz) and Creepy (Dark Horse). I'm pretty sure writing to their editors could assist you better in establishing contractual standards. You post on a message board, in a thread that had already gone hostile in regards to a scam-artist publisher, and you take what you get.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#559094 - 10/15/09 05:02 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Budman]
Mr. Socko Offline
Member

Registered: 11/22/04
Posts: 500
Ha, I like the moshpit analogy. Hopefully, along with the combat boots to the face and elbows in your ribs, you're able to come away with some useful feedback.

By far and large, the majority of contract complaints we hear about from comics pros come from publishers not living up to their end of the bargain. Be up front, realistic, and clear with the terms of the working agreements and you'll avoid Rich Johnston questioning your business practices.

The value judgments and cheap shots of uninformed comics fanboys over whether you should be in business in the first place are best just ignored.

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#559095 - 10/15/09 05:04 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Monsterverse1]
Jesse Hamm Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 682
Loc: Portland, USA
Originally Posted By: Monsterverse1
There seemed to be plenty of criticism of Bluewater's contracts. Since I'm in a similar situation and would like to avoid the kind of complaints some of Bluewater's freelancers have, I wanted to see how you guys thought the contracts could be written.


Kerry -- I think the biggest objection people had to Bluewater's contract is that it didn't specify what sum the royalties would come from. The contract only promised freelancers a percentage of ill-defined "profits," which could presumably be reckoned AFTER the publishers lined their own pockets.

So, if a book brought in $5000 from sales through distributors, and $2000 of that went to the printer, a freelancer would ideally get his percentage from the remaining $3000. But the unscrupulous publisher could subtract $3,000 for "publishing costs" (e.g., downpayments on the publisher's new car), leaving the freelancer with nothing.

To avoid that problem, a fair publisher should stipulate that the freelancer's royalty comes from an amount that can be clearly determined and documented. For example: "Artist is due ___% of all proceeds after the printing cost is covered."

IIRC, small publishers in the '90s were offering 40%-60% of proceeds minus the cost of printing. The publisher would then cover his own overhead (marketing, salaries, etc) out of the remaining percentage.
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#559096 - 10/15/09 05:13 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Mr. Socko]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: Mr. Socko
The value judgments and cheap shots of uninformed comics fanboys over whether you should be in business in the first place are best just ignored.

The unpaid artists, unpaid printers, lawyers and summons officer? They're best ignored, too.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#559103 - 10/15/09 06:34 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Jesse Hamm]
Monsterverse1 Offline
Junior member

Registered: 10/14/09
Posts: 15
Originally Posted By: Jesse Hamm
Kerry -- I think the biggest objection people had to Bluewater's contract is that it didn't specify what sum the royalties would come from. The contract only promised freelancers a percentage of ill-defined "profits," which could presumably be reckoned AFTER the publishers lined their own pockets.


I don't think it's that fuzzy. Davis stated that a book's "profitability" was "defined by a specific number of sales." If I'm reading that right, it's pretty cut and dried. When sales reach a certain point, creators get part of the profits. If they don't, Bluewater, as well as the creators, take the loss. If that's what the freelancers agree to then there's little room to complain. I think it would be more appropriate to pay at least a small page rate even if the profitability mark is higher and the publisher's risk is a little greater.

And, yes this is a labor of love on my part. And yes, I'd love to have some work by Pat if he's available. When Pat lived in Dallas he and I worked for sister ad agencies in the same building so would see each other frequently. And we knew each other before that from comics conventions.


Edited by Monsterverse1 (10/15/09 06:37 PM)
_________________________
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www.monsterverse.com

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#559112 - 10/16/09 05:30 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Monsterverse1]
Jesse Hamm Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 682
Loc: Portland, USA
Originally Posted By: Monsterverse1
Davis stated that a book's "profitability" was "defined by a specific number of sales."


I may have misremembered the complaints. Perhaps they complained that he was fudging the numbers to indicate a loss when a profit was made. Said one article: "Some people see a greater conspiracy, of sales figures for these titles being misreported, with allegations that Davis misrepresented sales." And: "...I understand that certain creators are arranging lawsuits for payment, specifically in the light of Bluewater’s recent biographical success."

In any case, the point would be to ensure that creators receive a clear percentage at a clear juncture in the sales process, and that there's documentation that creators can look at (such as printing bills) to ensure the numbers aren't being cooked.

Originally Posted By: Monsterverse1
I think it would be more appropriate to pay at least a small page rate even if the profitability mark is higher and the publisher's risk is a little greater.


No argument here.


Edited by Jesse Hamm (10/16/09 05:45 AM)
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#559115 - 10/16/09 07:24 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
Kirth Offline
Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 1176
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
..

Just a tiny bit of snark from Allen and he JUMPS?

Very thin skin.

I hadn't even gotten around to asking what he thought his defining work "in the medium" was.

..
_________________________
It does not have to be that way. You do not have to act that way. You are hurting people. Please stop.


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#559116 - 10/16/09 08:19 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Kirth]
Bring Back Zot Offline
Member

Registered: 06/05/05
Posts: 2438
Originally Posted By: Kirth
..

Just a tiny bit of snark from Allen and he JUMPS?
..


If you're not used to Allen's abrasiveness, it can be pretty startling. Kerry came here looking for some honest advice. I don't think he expected the standard "comicon hello" from Allen. In fact, very few pros (Erik Larsen, Jesse Hamm and Pat Broderick are exceptions) have patience for this nonsense.

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#559138 - 10/16/09 02:36 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Bring Back Zot]
techmann Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 243
Kerry is absolutely correct about the Bluewater contract. It states a % of profits paid after printing cost. It would be in everyone’s best interest to drop the “fudging” approach. What seems to be going on are some creators whose books sold below that clearly stated line feel that because of the success of the political Biographies that they should therefore be paid something from the success of those books to cover their investment of time and effort. An approach that will not hold up in a courtroom. Hell, I’m still having my constant run with DC going on and the contract is clear. If anyone’s noticed the latest Bat Man Super Man direct to video release that I have, again, another event with the use of my designs for both Captain Atom and Major Force to contend with. As I had stated earlier at the beginning of this thread, read the contract carefully. Understand what both parties are agreeing to. Darren has been straight up front with me and met the agreement to the letter of the contract. He hasn’t deserved all of the bashing that has been directed his way. As for Kerry’s question my earlier comment is still the best scenario I came up with when I laid out all of the options and players in front of me. That one showed survivor ability based on separate distribution venues outside of the direct distribution outlets coupled with affordable cost. Once that’s established an expansion into the direct Market and through them the bookstore chains didn’t become a do or die situation controlled by a distributor whose largest clients have a clear vested interest in squashing the independents.
And Kerry, you can always contact me through my comicartfans.com gallery if you want
Pat Broderick

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#559150 - 10/16/09 05:02 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: techmann
Kerry is absolutely correct about the Bluewater contract. It states a % of profits paid after printing cost. It would be in everyone’s best interest to drop the “fudging” approach. What seems to be going on are some creators whose books sold below that clearly stated line feel that because of the success of the political Biographies that they should therefore be paid something from the success of those books to cover their investment of time and effort.


I understand what you're saying, but I wouldn't agree that there wasn't a potential case to be made. I agree it's a pretty straight-forward contract, and no one was holding a gun to anyone's head to sign, but I can't get past the the fact that it a pretty bad deal. If it was a creator owned book, I could at least see the benefit, but it's all company owned properties that we are talking about right?

I don't know how much different comics are from other publishing but I'm just trying to imagine that contract in other business situations, and it just seems more like a scam than a business model. I mean the potential sales should be fairly predictable with a certain margin of error, given they have published for a few years, and should be keeping track of their sales figures. And the upfront costs should be very, very predictable, you've got printing, distribution, pre-press, creative etc...

It wouldn't be that hard for a publisher to predict a optimal print run if that publisher knows he can keep his costs limited to X minus freelancers, under a certain threshold, and that above that threshold his costs go up significantly to X plus freelancers.

It would work like tax brackets. Your better off selling fewer comics (within a certain window), because if you sell too many you have to pay the artists too.

The publisher has the final say on the print run and distribution etc. If the artist's lawyers could show that the publisher was consistently keeping the print and distribution numbers within the window that maximized profits but minimized costs by not having to pay the freelancers, it might go along way to convincing a judge the whole set-up was designed to work in a way to NOT pay the artists. And I'm no lawyer but my understanding is that if a contract is a bad enough deal, it's enforcement and validity could be brought into question. Creating a way for the artists to sue for a reasonable compensation for their work.

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#559156 - 10/16/09 05:55 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Monsterverse1]
ChrisW Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
Originally Posted By: Monsterverse1
Originally Posted By: Kirth
I think the point we were making with the Bluewater contracts is that they SEEMED to be a contract that laid all the BENEFIT to the Company and all the WORK to the Creator.


But what I'm asking is this: What specifically would you do differently if the details of the contract were up to you? I'm not trying to either defend or criticize Bluewater's contracts. I'm looking for input on what an ideal small press contract should contain that would cover the contributions and risks of both the publisher and the talent in a situation where making a profit from the comic itself is unlikely. Any ideas? Thanks.

Kerry Gammill
www.monsterverse.com


Mr. Gammill, I haven't followed any of the links, or even read further down the thread, so this is all based on what people have said thus far, it sounds like the main issue people are having is with the company owning the property, work-for-hire-style. Coupled with the fact that the creators aren't getting paid up front, there's no basis for giving your creations to someone else, legally or morally.

Is there some actual reason for the company to claim ownership? Legal status, tax reasons, something? Otherwise it sounds the same as telling people 'have any great ideas, give 'em to me, and if they work out, I'll give you a piece of it.'

If there is a genuine reason to make the company the owner of the work, then my suggestion is to have that be a temporary condition. If the property doesn't make any money, then the creator should be able to take back his work without question. If it does make money, then the clause should be temporary, or at the very least subject to further negotiation. Maybe the creator takes full ownership but the company has a larger share of the money, or maybe the property remains exclusively with the company until it goes out of business. These things can be negotiated, and negotiating over successful properties is quite different from negotiating over unsuccessful ones. If you and Pat are respectively happy with your contracts, and if the company wants to keep you happy after the comics make a profit, then we all hope you all find ways to continue being happy.

If there's not a legitimate reason for the company to take ownership, then my suggestion would be to drop the ownership clause. You are creators who are take a chance on your work, as are the publishers, who will pay you once they are able to do so. That is utterly fair.

That said, it is a legitimate question how much the non-creators who work for the publisher are paid, and how many of them there are. As a hypothetical example, if Bluewater publishes thirty books that make just enough money to keep being published, as well as pay for thirty other books that don't make money, they'd need a big staff to handle that much outflow, requiring a lot more cash to start turning a profit, and the creators would still be working for free. Who's willing to go back to working for free because the company just hired two secretaries and an ad man so the book is suddenly unprofitable again?


Edited by ChrisW (10/16/09 06:17 PM)
Edit Reason: edited because I thought of a way to improve the meter
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#559157 - 10/16/09 06:12 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: ChrisW]
ChrisW Offline
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Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
Allen, you're being a dick.


Edited by ChrisW (10/16/09 06:15 PM)
Edit Reason: No, this one was fine the way it was
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#559161 - 10/16/09 06:36 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: ChrisW]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: ChrisW
Who's willing to go back to working for free because the company just hired two secretaries and an ad man so the book is suddenly unprofitable again?


Wouldn't the ad sales guy be commission only? Maybe a draw that he works off, but I can't imagine he gets a better contract than the artists.

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#559166 - 10/16/09 08:45 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
Jesse Hamm Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 682
Loc: Portland, USA
Originally Posted By: techmann
the Bluewater contract. It states a % of profits paid after printing cost.


Really? The royalty is a percentage after printing cost? If so, I think that would clear Bluewater of the appearance of dishonesty.

But this is the first indication I've seen that the contract lays things out so clearly. I've read that creators got a percentage of "profits," but nothing that clearly defined how profits were determined.
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#559170 - 10/16/09 09:38 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Joe Lee]
ChrisW Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
Originally Posted By: ChrisW
Who's willing to go back to working for free because the company just hired two secretaries and an ad man so the book is suddenly unprofitable again?


Wouldn't the ad sales guy be commission only? Maybe a draw that he works off, but I can't imagine he gets a better contract than the artists.


It's a hypothetical example. Still relevant though. If hiring those people means the difference between making a profit or not making a profit for a company, what is the company doing to convince people to work with them? At least, what is it offering that they couldn't get if they kept the ownership rights to their work? I still haven't followed any of the links, but what's been said on this thread looks like a good way to screw the creators of a successful property after the fact, and this stuff is only relevant after a property is successful. If Superman or Marvel had bombed, no one would give a shit about Siegel, Shuster or Kirby's creative rights. If Pat and Kerry are happy with their deals, it's their choice, I respect that, I hope they continue to be happy, and I reserve the right to point and laugh and say "I told you so" if they wind up getting screwed if their productions are successful for the company.

Using the two most available names, which is better, Pat being currently happy with his deal, it becomes a success and he's not able to get out of it, or Kerry being currently happy with his deal, it isn't as successful, and he can get out of it?

The important thing is that they and the company they work with all remain happy, because they'll look out for each other's interests that way. It's when either side doesn't do that where problems begin.
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#559172 - 10/17/09 02:17 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: ChrisW]
Monsterverse1 Offline
Junior member

Registered: 10/14/09
Posts: 15
To clear up one point, in this case I am not the freelancer, I'm the publisher. I have never considered for a moment asking people to work for free but give me ownership of what they create. So far we have been doing things on a creator-owned basis, but we are trying to design other agreements for different cases. My thanks to everyone for their opinions.
_________________________
Kerry Gammill
www.monsterverse.com

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#559173 - 10/17/09 03:26 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Monsterverse1]
Kirth Offline
Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 1176
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
..

It's a tough business to be in, no doubt. Dark Horse did a great job marketing properties for movies. Perhaps that is the new business model.

Publishing floppies, esp through a new company, seems a hard road.

Creating Europeon-style, sci-fi/fantasy HCs for distribution through bookstores is probably more cost effective, since your material can be held for a much longer period than floppies.

..
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#559175 - 10/17/09 03:57 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Monsterverse1]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Monsterverse1
My thanks to everyone for their opinions.

Thank you for participating in the discussion.

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#559176 - 10/17/09 04:27 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Joe Lee]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Kirth
...Creating Europeon-style, sci-fi/fantasy HCs for distribution through bookstores is probably more cost effective, since your material can be held for a much longer period than floppies.


I agree. That seems to be the new business model for a lot of people who are self-publishing, selling over a longer time, doing more of their own promotion and marketing, taking advantage of the flexibility of using PODs. And for comics even if you don't make any money, you have a great portfolio piece and at least you didn't work on somebody else's comic for free.


Edited by Joe Lee (10/17/09 09:10 AM)

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#559178 - 10/17/09 09:59 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Kirth]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: Kirth
Just a tiny bit of snark from Allen and he JUMPS?

Amazingly, Kerry's still here. Posted in another thread, even.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#559179 - 10/17/09 10:02 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: ChrisW]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: ChrisW
Allen, you're being a dick.

How would you know, you supply clerk pussy?
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#559180 - 10/17/09 10:05 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Bring Back Zot]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: Bring Back Zot
Kerry came here looking for some honest advice.

And that's what he got.


Originally Posted By: Bring Back Zot
I don't think he expected the standard "comicon hello" from Allen. In fact, very few pros (Erik Larsen, Jesse Hamm and Pat Broderick are exceptions) have patience for this nonsense.

We've thus far gone five days without a "Tony's Wildly Annoying Tips" announcement, so you should be grateful.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#559181 - 10/17/09 10:12 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Kirth]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: Kirth
Dark Horse did a great job marketing properties for movies.

Let's talk about what this thing is. Yet another horror anthology, with the gimmick of Bela Lugosi as the the celebrity host. What's the benefit of giving the creators ownership? If Lugosi is actually featured in the work, they'd have to either pay the licensing company to reprint the work elsewhere, or modify the character's likeness. And where else could the work be used? In another startup horror anthology?

Just pay the creators a decent page rate and be done with it.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#559190 - 10/17/09 12:54 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Charles Reece Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/99
Posts: 10013
Loc: us of fuckin' a
Quote:
We've thus far gone five days without a "Tony's Wildly Annoying Tips" announcement, so you should be grateful.

You can't claim credit for that, it'ss fear of having to admit he was wrong to Lawson. Your torture method isn't as effective.
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#559193 - 10/17/09 02:21 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Charles Reece]
Alexander Ness Offline
Member

Registered: 09/17/03
Posts: 3840
Loc: Minnesota
Originally Posted By: Charles Reece
Quote:
We've thus far gone five days without a "Tony's Wildly Annoying Tips" announcement, so you should be grateful.

You can't claim credit for that, it'ss fear of having to admit he was wrong to Lawson. Your torture method isn't as effective.


Yeah, that, or maybe he decided everyone here was an asshole not worth having read his work.

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#559195 - 10/17/09 03:17 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Joe Lee]
Kirth Offline
Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 1176
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
Originally Posted By: Kirth
...Creating Europeon-style, sci-fi/fantasy HCs for distribution through bookstores is probably more cost effective, since your material can be held for a much longer period than floppies.


I agree. That seems to be the new business model for a lot of people who are self-publishing, selling over a longer time, doing more of their own promotion and marketing, taking advantage of the flexibility of using PODs. And for comics even if you don't make any money, you have a great portfolio piece and at least you didn't work on somebody else's comic for free.


That's kind of what Corben did through the 1970s. And, of course, that's what Frazetta did.

.
_________________________
It does not have to be that way. You do not have to act that way. You are hurting people. Please stop.


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#559199 - 10/17/09 05:24 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Monsterverse1 Offline
Junior member

Registered: 10/14/09
Posts: 15
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Let's talk about what this thing is. Yet another horror anthology, with the gimmick of Bela Lugosi as the the celebrity host. What's the benefit of giving the creators ownership? If Lugosi is actually featured in the work, they'd have to either pay the licensing company to reprint the work elsewhere, or modify the character's likeness. And where else could the work be used? In another startup horror anthology?

Just pay the creators a decent page rate and be done with it.


That's the first useful thing you've said, Allen. Good points, dealing with the issue of fair freelance contracts, not just questioning the worth of the product or my choice to be a publisher.
_________________________
Kerry Gammill
www.monsterverse.com

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#559201 - 10/17/09 05:36 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Monsterverse1]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Monsterverse1
That's the first useful thing you've said, Allen. Good points...


If your trying positive reinforcement it won't work.

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#559203 - 10/17/09 05:48 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Charles Reece]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: Charles Reece
You can't claim credit for that, it'ss fear of having to admit he was wrong to Lawson. Your torture method isn't as effective.

That's true. But I opened up the playing field to engage Tony in conversation beyond his blog-spam posts, which led to that.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#559205 - 10/17/09 05:54 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
So you are actually TRYING to take any credit even partial credit for bullying a harmless old guy of a comic book message board? Yep, that'll look good on a resumé.

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#559206 - 10/17/09 05:58 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
He was given many, many opportunities to straighten out his act.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#559209 - 10/17/09 06:12 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
He was given many, many opportunities to straighten out his act.


Nice. It's very generous of you to have tried so hard (for the benefit of the community) to get the man to conform to what you consider acceptable behavior standards, given how well you have straightened out your act in response to criticism from others.

Like you chasing that gay guy into the street, that you were so proud to tell everyone about. You take it upon yourself to police behavior you don't find acceptable, by bullying people. Seems like a pattern there bud.


Edited by Joe Lee (10/17/09 06:18 PM)

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#559211 - 10/17/09 06:32 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
You're the one who keeps bringing that up. You have a fantasy about being picked up on a street corner or something?

The criticism of Tony's spamming, however, goes back at least eleven years. And not just by me. I went through the copy-self folder on my old newsreader program a few days ago and came up with some interesting things where he was getting slammed pretty hard for it on Usenet, and then he was turning around and slamming Usenet in his blog. Hey, you don't like it... LEAVE. I only ever tried to push him in the direction of participating more and spamming less.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#559218 - 10/17/09 11:20 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Bring Back Zot Offline
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Registered: 06/05/05
Posts: 2438
Back to Kerry's new Lugosi book.

Irrespective of the contract, you'll have happier writers and artists if they make more money. They'll make more money if the book sells well. Which gets to the main point, that of marketing the book.

Allen makes a fair point when he states there are other horror anthologies on the market now. One is pretty good (Dark Horse's new Creepy, with new art by Angelo Torres), one is OK (DC's House of Mystery - recent stories by Adams and Corben), and one is terrible (the Papercutz Tales from the Crypt).

So Kerry, if you're going to compete against the above products, what will make your book special and better? Assuming it is special, what's your plan to raise awareness among those few of us that still read comics?

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#559220 - 10/18/09 12:24 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Hey, you don't like it... LEAVE.


So if you don't like something it's ok to give someone a hard time about it, (you even told a guy in this thread to fuck off over nothing), but if I don't like something I should "LEAVE?"

Other people aren't supposed to give you a hard time about stuff? Dude, if you can dish it out you should at least be able to take it once and a while without telling people to leave.

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#559226 - 10/18/09 07:29 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Joe Lee]
ChrisW Offline
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Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
Hey, he calls a Special Forces paratrooper a "supply clerk pussy", it's not like he has a grasp on what could go wrong. So of course he'll publicly brag about bullying old men and comics pros. And have very few legitimate things to say otherwise.

Kerry, sorry about misreading that you weren't a Bluewater client. Reword my suggestions with that in mind, and they'll work just the same.

About Bela Lugosi, how important is he to the work? I don't mean as a celebrity name on the cover, I mean does he have any presence in the individual stories you're putting together? I'm fighting a reference to "Plan 9 From Outer Space" here, but if the actual stories don't involve Bela in any way, then you shouldn't have any problems with his name up front. It still sucks that you can't pay creators a page rate, but if you don't have any money and they believe in their work enough to do it anyway, and they get to keep full ownership, best of luck to all of you because it seems like an interesting new way of doing comics, commercial and creator-friendly. Bela Lugosi's name will mean something to a potential audience, in the way "Tomb-Keeper's Vault of Suspense" won't.

If the stories do involve Bela personally, then I'd suggest telling the creators to do what they can to make him a generic and therefore-easily-removable presence if they find a use for their work later. An EC-style narrator, cackling over his latest offerings of horror and mayhem for instance. Of course, with this, they risk limiting their appeal to those who want EC-style stories, and such a narrator is going to give it that impression no matter how much the stories are drawn, lettered or told differently.

Maybe it can be done editorially. I submit to Monsterverse an x-page horror story [X-Page is TM and copyright Marvel Comics] which you accept for publication, and Monsterverse is responsible for adding Bela Lugosi to the narration. I still have the original story and the rights to it, you just add the Bela for publication, which would keep you, me and Lugosi's estate happy. You wouldn't have problems unless my story was "How Bela Lugosi Killed Me And How I Got Revenge On Him".

If Lugosi's presence in the stories extends beyond that cameo, then I dunno what to tell you. Have the creators write it so they can substitute a generic vampire/old morphine addict and republish it elsewhere. But I assume you aren't relying *that* much on Lugosi's sales prowess.
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#559233 - 10/18/09 02:43 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
(you even told a guy in this thread to fuck off over nothing)

Really? I told someone to "fuck off"? I don't seem to recall that.


Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
but if I don't like something I should "LEAVE?"

Tony did a few installments of his blog back in 1998 about how shitty Usenet was, how it had no rules and people he didn't like couldn't get banned. Many people told him that's just the way it is, and if he didn't like it, don't post his spam there. I'm guessing you can figure out what his reaction was.


Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
Other people aren't supposed to give you a hard time about stuff?

I welcome confrontation gladly. But if your continual reference to one old story somehow relates to your own personal sexual fantasies, we need to address that.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#559234 - 10/18/09 02:53 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: ChrisW]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: ChrisW
Hey, he calls a Special Forces paratrooper a "supply clerk pussy"

The supply clerk in an SF unit is not a "Special Forces paratrooper." Attached personnel have to go to Airborne School, big whoop. The chaplain and the clerk-typist in your S-1 did, too. Not like it's hard or anything.

I turned Airborne School down when it was offered to me for three reasons: 1) I was going to a light infantry unit and it would have served me no purpose; 2) my basic unit was on a cohort plan and I didn't want to show up several weeks later than everyone else; and 3) in the demonstration they put on for us, one of the trainees' parachutes didn't open and the kid hit the ground and died.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#559236 - 10/18/09 04:56 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Monsterverse1]
charlie Offline
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Registered: 05/18/01
Posts: 477
Originally Posted By: Monsterverse1
What specifically would you do differently if the details of the contract were up to you? I'm not trying to either defend or criticize Bluewater's contracts. I'm looking for input on what an ideal small press contract should contain that would cover the contributions and risks of both the publisher and the talent in a situation where making a profit from the comic itself is unlikely. Any ideas? Thanks.

Kerry Gammill
www.monsterverse.com


That's a tough one. In these situations I think it will really come down to what else does the publisher offer besides money. Will they be willing to use the limited budget to promote the talent involved as part of the marketing strategy? that is valuble in itself to people looking to work their way in or back in to comics.

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#559256 - 10/18/09 11:12 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: ChrisW]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: ChrisW
Hey, he calls a Special Forces paratrooper a "supply clerk pussy", it's not like he has a grasp on what could go wrong. So of course he'll publicly brag about bullying old men and comics pros. And have very few legitimate things to say otherwise.

Necro has a good point now and again, but I agree they are few. Plus, it's hard to take them seriously when they are lost in the sea of bullshit posturing and potshots that are most of his posts.

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#559261 - 10/18/09 11:59 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: charlie]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: charlie
...what else does the publisher offer besides money. Will they be willing to use the limited budget to promote the talent involved as part of the marketing strategy? that is valuble in itself to people looking to work their way in or back in to comics.


Yeah, could they give the artists a free page in the comic to do whatever they wanted, self promotion, bio, or ad for their freelance business?

One of the very first freelance jobs I ever had was doing (innocuous) editorial cartoons for a local monthly business newspaper and I got paid some cash, but mostly in trade, as a 2 inch classified boxed ad in the paper, which I used to promote myself as a freelance graphic designer. I did it for 8 months and made more money on any one of the four or five jobs I got from the ad than I did from all of the cartoons combined.

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#559278 - 10/19/09 10:04 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
(you even told a guy in this thread to fuck off over nothing)

Really? I told someone to "fuck off"? I don't seem to recall that.


Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
but if I don't like something I should "LEAVE?"

Tony did a few installments of his blog back in 1998 about how shitty Usenet was, how it had no rules and people he didn't like couldn't get banned. Many people told him that's just the way it is, and if he didn't like it, don't post his spam there. I'm guessing you can figure out what his reaction was.


Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
Other people aren't supposed to give you a hard time about stuff?

I welcome confrontation gladly. But if your continual reference to one old story somehow relates to your own personal sexual fantasies, we need to address that.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#559282 - 10/19/09 11:10 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
And Chrissie's just upset because he's getting his rear eschelon handed to him in the Gutters.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#559300 - 10/19/09 09:50 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
ChrisW Offline
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Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
Right, Allen is "kicking my ass" by bringing up a rape victim's sexual history in hopes of keeping the rapist from being punished. Way to go. And he doesn't acknoledge that I haven't been in a supply room for nearly a year. And he honestly doesn't remember saying:

Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Hey, fuck you too, Kerry.


But he thinks he has something to say anyway. Isn't that cute. That's an 11B for you. He just keeps talking anyway. Look at how he tries dragging Tony Isabella into the thread. It's like he aspires to live up to the worst stereotypes about soldiers.

Pat, can you give any specifics on what the contract does or doesn't say? I'll understand if you can't, but you at least imply major headaches and rip-offs with larger companies, that make the ostensible work-for-hire policies of Bluewater more palatable. If you're not getting paid and you still think this contract is worthwhile, fine, but from those of us on the outside, you deserve maximum leverage if your work starts turning a profit, and based on what's been said on this thread, it doesn't sound like you really have that chance. We the audience want you to make as much money as possible, and to have as much cvontrol over the work. If there's any truth to Bluewater taking the ownership, then the best you can do is hope it's not successful enough to bring up the ownership issues. Sucks to be you I guess.
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If This Be... PayPal!!!

"I think ChrisW is the funniest man in entertainment still alive..."
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#559302 - 10/19/09 10:17 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: ChrisW]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: ChrisW
Right, Allen is "kicking my ass" by bringing up a rape victim's sexual history in hopes of keeping the rapist from being punished. Way to go.

Nothing you or I say on a message board will change what happens or has happened to Roman Polanski. I am merely laying out the facts in the face of your hate-mongering and petty jealousy.


Originally Posted By: ChrisW
And he doesn't acknoledge that I haven't been in a supply room for nearly a year.

Golly! Sorry I don't keep a closer watch on your career there, Chrissie! You finally make it to the S-4?


Originally Posted By: ChrisW
And he honestly doesn't remember saying: "Hey, fuck you too, Kerry."

Go back and read the exchange between Joe and myself again, Chrissie. Pay real close attention this time.


Originally Posted By: ChrisW
Look at how he tries dragging Tony Isabella into the thread.

If only I could've worked Al Gore or Vince Foster in there, I'm sure you'd have no quarrel.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#559315 - 10/20/09 10:59 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
techmann Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 243
ChrisW
Pat, can you give any specifics on what the contract does or doesn't say? I'll understand if you can't, but you at least imply major headaches and rip-offs with larger companies, that make the ostensible work-for-hire policies of Bluewater more palatable. If you're not getting paid and you still think this contract is worthwhile, fine, but from those of us on the outside, you deserve maximum leverage if your work starts turning a profit, and based on what's been said on this thread, it doesn't sound like you really have that chance. We the audience want you to make as much money as possible, and to have as much cvontrol over the work. If there's any truth to Bluewater taking the ownership, then the best you can do is hope it's not successful enough to bring up the ownership issues. Sucks to be you I guess.

Chris....

Openly discuss the specifics about my personal contract with Bluewater? NO. And here’s why. It’s very unethical to discuss the details of any agreement with anyone other than those the agreement is with, and even only then if their name is on the contract. And in an open discussion, never, even after the contracted time of the contract has passed it’s still unethical, and likely illegal to discuss and details of any contract with anyone other than those whose names are on the dotted line period. Now other than generalities I’ve never discussed the details of my contracts with DC. We are still sorting out all of the back listed properties which they owe me compensation for. And they’re growing with the latest distribution of their DVD sales.
My contract with Bluewater is based on my history in the industry and therefore it could be considered “Specific” in our agreement.
Simply put, if a creator does not like what he reads within the submitted contract then they should make the change they want, note the change to the other party, and negotiate an agreement. Nothing in my contract reverts any property I’m creating to Bluewater. They do have the right to bring in another creative crew if my work falls under professional standards, or I’m so terminally late that they must change creative team to meet the deadline. But the ownership is still mine and as I’m in the middle of the Shatner project we should be seeing some movement on my own properties around the Summer of next year.
Pat Broderick

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#559327 - 10/20/09 02:59 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: techmann

Simply put, if a creator does not like what he reads within the submitted contract then they should make the change they want, note the change to the other party, and negotiate an agreement.


That may be true, but if the contract states that the artist will get paid in the event a particular set of circumstances, say if the book makes X dollars, my understanding is that the set of circumstances needs to be a reasonable possibility or that contract is arguably not a valid contract.

My guess is that many of the artists with a beef against Bluewater might actually have a case.

----------

Pat try to click on the quote button
Here at the bottom of the box ----> ---->

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#559336 - 10/20/09 04:45 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Joe Lee]
techmann Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 243
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
[quote=techmann]
Simply put, if a creator does not like what he reads within the submitted contract then they should make the change they want, note the change to the other party, and negotiate an agreement.


That may be true, but if the contract states that the artist will get paid in the event a particular set of circumstances, say if the book makes X dollars, my understanding is that the set of circumstances needs to be a reasonable possibility or that contract is arguably not a valid contract.

My guess is that many of the artists with a beef against Bluewater might actually have a case.

----------

Pat try to click on the quote button
Here at the bottom of the box ----> ---->
{Thanks Joe...I knew it was there... I just choose to needle Allen}


If circumstances being “After cost”? then there’s an ignorance at work here Joe. And whats “Reasonable” in today’s market. Here’s an actual case. My Vincent Price was ordered by a local shop here and they wanted me in as a guest to sign the books. The store owner ordered it correctly, but when it shipped his store never received it. When he inquired he was told that the shipment was ‘Short” and that his order was ‘Adjusted”. Then four weeks later the books arrived at his store. When he inquired he was told that they “Found “His books and shipped them right out.
Is it reasonable to assume that the distributor made an ‘Honest’ mistake? Or is he intentionally letting the independents’ books sit on the warehouse floor for over a month, beyond any point where the publisher can see the ‘Real” orders and a return on his investment.
If the contract says “After cost” it is reasonable for the creative to request to see the total spread sheet, which I might add Darren will do. What if the creator doesn’t believe the sheet? Is it reasonable for them to challenge the numbers? Is it reasonable for creators to imply that the success of the political biographies should entitle them to a “Page Rate”. When does this all just become “sour grapes”
I spent some time going over my contract with them. I made sure that it was working for both of us, Bluewater and me.
I didn’t make great money on the first printing. But I will be paid every time that story goes to print.
And not some ridiculous reprint rate, but the same structure as if it was first being printed and shipped, forever.
Pat Broderick

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#559340 - 10/20/09 04:51 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: techmann
I will be paid every time that story goes to print.

And how many times do you think it will be printed, Pat?
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#559343 - 10/20/09 05:31 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: techmann
{Thanks Joe...I knew it was there... I just choose to needle Allen}

I can respect that, it was just getting a little confusing.

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#559344 - 10/20/09 06:13 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Peter Urkowitz Offline
Member

Registered: 08/28/00
Posts: 3231
Loc: Salem, MA, USA
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Originally Posted By: techmann
I will be paid every time that story goes to print.

And how many times do you think it will be printed, Pat?


I did see the collected edition TPB of about five or six issues, including Pat's, in the store last week. So that's at least two printings this year. Who knows? I get your point that it might not have much life left in it saleswise, but it seems like Bluewater are making an honest effort to get it out there.

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#559349 - 10/20/09 09:09 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Peter Urkowitz]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: techmann
Is it reasonable for creators to imply that the success of the political biographies should entitle them to a “Page Rate”. When does this all just become “sour grapes”

The success of the political biographies means there is money there to make a lawsuit worth bothering to pursue. What the courts need to determine is whether or not the case has merit...

Originally Posted By: techmann

If circumstances being “After cost”? then there’s an ignorance at work here Joe. And whats “Reasonable” in today’s market...

If the contract says “After cost” it is reasonable for the creative to request to see the total spread sheet, which I might add Darren will do. What if the creator doesn’t believe the sheet? Is it reasonable for them to challenge the numbers?


I don't think it matters whether it's reasonable or not. But why wouldn't it be?

I think it's about what the publisher could have reasonably expected. If there are enough of these books where artists didn't get paid because they didn't meet the payment threshold, then one could reasonably assume at some point the publisher new the artists would probably not get paid, given the history of such projects and the contract restrictions.

Another thing that might not work in their favor is, if these projects were financially beneficial to the publisher. Did THEIR cost not just include external but internal costs as well. Did the company make money on any of the projects that the artists did not. And I don't mean profits, I mean did any money from producing these projects go towards pay their bills, their payroll, anything? It may not have made money but did the publisher benefit from taking projects that they new would not benefit the artists? It wouldn't be hard to make a case that the publisher could benefit from knowingly engaging the services of freelancers while having a reasonable expectation that the artists would never get paid, given the history of such projects and the contract restrictions.

If the artist's lawyers could show that the publisher was consistently keeping the print and distribution numbers within the window that maximized profits but minimized costs by not having to pay the freelancers, it might go along way to convincing a judge the whole set-up was designed to work in a way to NOT pay the artists. And that's not a hard case to make if they've produced more than a handful of books that didn't meet the payment threshold.

But I'm not a lawyer, this is all speculation.


Edited by Joe Lee (10/20/09 09:28 PM)

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#559412 - 10/21/09 05:05 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Joe Lee]
Jesse Hamm Offline
Member

Registered: 09/24/01
Posts: 682
Loc: Portland, USA
Quote:
Another thing that might not work in their favor is, if these projects were financially beneficial to the publisher. Did THEIR cost not just include external but internal costs as well. Did the company make money on any of the projects that the artists did not. And I don't mean profits, I mean did any money from producing these projects go towards pay their bills, their payroll, anything?


Pat said earlier that the contract states freelancers are paid after printing costs, and if that's the case, it would be easy enough to check Darren's numbers -- you'd just look at the printer's bill.

But if the "cost" includes other expenses, such as "publisher overhead," that's where book-cooking could occur.
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#559471 - 10/22/09 03:05 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Jesse Hamm]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Exactly it would be very easy to determine. I just thought Pat was saying it wasn't reasonable for the artists to ask for the proof, or that they didn't have a case, maybe I misunderstood.

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#559497 - 10/22/09 08:39 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
ChrisW Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
Originally Posted By: techmann
Openly discuss the specifics about my personal contract with Bluewater? NO. And here’s why. It’s very unethical to discuss the details of any agreement with anyone other than those the agreement is with, and even only then if their name is on the contract. And in an open discussion, never, even after the contracted time of the contract has passed it’s still unethical, and likely illegal to discuss and details of any contract with anyone other than those whose names are on the dotted line period. Now other than generalities I’ve never discussed the details of my contracts with DC. We are still sorting out all of the back listed properties which they owe me compensation for. And they’re growing with the latest distribution of their DVD sales.
My contract with Bluewater is based on my history in the industry and therefore it could be considered “Specific” in our agreement.
Simply put, if a creator does not like what he reads within the submitted contract then they should make the change they want, note the change to the other party, and negotiate an agreement. Nothing in my contract reverts any property I’m creating to Bluewater. They do have the right to bring in another creative crew if my work falls under professional standards, or I’m so terminally late that they must change creative team to meet the deadline. But the ownership is still mine and as I’m in the middle of the Shatner project we should be seeing some movement on my own properties around the Summer of next year.
Pat Broderick


Pat, all I meant was if you could give something more specific than "I like this contract more than I liked that contract", and trying to acknowledge that there are legal and/or ethical reasons for you to not get specific. "Throw us a bone". Ok, you can't or won't, your statements here are perfectly acceptable.

Several questions: One, so is this a firm statement that no, you aren't doing work-for-hire level comics for no money? Which is, as I said, probably the biggest argument in this thread so far. If you're doing work for free, that's your problem, if the company can or can't be trusted to treat you fairly once the comic turns a profit. If you're giving away rights to things you do for free, that's a legitimate creators' rights issue. If you aren't doing that, then we self-appointed guardians of creators' rights have nothing to complain about (except for Allen, who's a dick anyway). You do the work you're expected to do for free, and keep the rights until such time as the company has enough money to ask you to sign them away, that's an intruiging addition to the creators' rights struggles of several decades, and I'm interested in how it works out, as well as hoping that you and Bluewater are successful.

[Just in case I've misunderstood so far, I haven't followed any of the links, and know nothing more about Bluewater or their contracts than what I've read on this thread. If I'm wrong about any of this, by all means, correct me.]

But how can you, or they, justify bringing in another creative team on your work if you happen to fall behind deadlines, without work-for-hire rules? You're wrong if you fall behind on your obligations, and the company is wrong if they bring anyone else in to fake the comic you believe in just to have a book on the stands. Either way, it's damaging to one side or the other, and that's not even mentioning what the stand-in creative team brings to the story, or what their rights should be.

Basically, it comes down to a handful of questions:

1: What is better about working with Bluewater in the event that the books don't turn a profit?

2: What is better about working with Bluewater in the event that the books turn a profit?

3: What is better about your control over your creations than working with anyone else who is (like it or not), seen on a similar level; why go with Bluewater if Dark Horse is still considering for instance?

4: Do you have any free movement to a different publisher if you are unhappy? What about the control of your creations should you separate with Bluewater, who is the one in control? I'm thinking here of one of the proto-sci-fi authors whose name I don't remember, but he made a comfortable living for the rest of his life just selling the movie option of his most important story to various studios who never came close to making the movie. And Jim Lee, who isn't able to do anything with WildC.A.T.S on the new Image book because he and his characters are trapped at DC.

5: How does whether or not Bluewater turns a profit relate to any of this? You're happy with the contract, you trust the company, fine, I will defend you to the ends of the Earth. But for anyone else who may wind up in a similar situation, and you may be in a similar situation [/Arlo Guthrie] what are the options really like, dispassionately, for someone who isn't already signed to the company?
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#559498 - 10/22/09 08:40 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: ChrisW]
ChrisW Offline
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Allen, you're still a dick.


Edited by ChrisW (10/22/09 08:41 PM)
Edit Reason: Because it's still true.
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#559500 - 10/22/09 10:53 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: ChrisW]
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And you're still a limpwristed douche who gets paid to hand out toilet paper.
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#559532 - 10/23/09 09:13 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: ChrisW]
techmann Offline
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Morning Chris.
Sorry about the delay in responding to this but I’m in my last quarter of my BFA degree, 20 hours a week as a student, and still teaching 20 hours a week, still doing commissions, and still working on Man O War. It’s a long week if you get my drift.

1: What is better about working with Bluewater in the event that the books don't turn a profit?

Well let’s look at this. On the books that I own it will still mean that any development of these will give a substantial return to me. As you pointed out that options can be sold repeatedly after the time limit expires per agreement. Also any merchandising profits will generate income also. I’ve structured all storylines at 4 issue arch’s to insure that trade collections can also be produced at regular intervals. So, theoretically, there will be, eventually, multi income streams from work that is completed in addition to what’s being produced on the table.
Under these contracted conditions, without an up-front page rate I can only accomplish this because I’m in a position of deriving my main income from teaching and commissions. Not everyone can do this, but until Bluewater is in a financial position to pay a page rate up front it works for us both. And finally, It gets my work out there, through producing books for bluewater I’ll see greater interest and returns from any conventions I attend and an increase in commission request as this develops.

2: What is better about working with Bluewater in the event that the books turn a profit?

All of the above, and greater profits for me.

3: What is better about your control over your creations than working with anyone else who is (like it or not), seen on a similar level; why go with Bluewater if Dark Horse is still considering for instance?

Bluewater was the first to offer the amount of ownership that I required. Which is to say its greater than the other houses. We tried at Darkhorse and the properties were not a good fit. We tried at Antarctica and it was not a good fit. I tried at Image and it was not a good fit. But the shoe fit at Bluewater .
Also understand that I would work for any of the above-mentioned, except Anacrtica, companies if they were interested.

4: Do you have any free movement to a different publisher if you are unhappy? What about the control of your creations should you separate with Bluewater, who is the one in control? I'm thinking here of one of the proto-sci-fi authors whose name I don't remember, but he made a comfortable living for the rest of his life just selling the movie option of his most important story to various studios who never came close to making the movie. And Jim Lee, who isn't able to do anything with WildC.A.T.S on the new Image book because he and his characters are trapped at DC.

I do have free movement, and let me take this moment to answer and connected question about other creatives finishing a project. If a publisher contracts for x number of issues with a creative and the creative fails to meet the deadlines the publisher still has a very vested interest in getting the book out. In order to meet a shipping deadline the publisher might ask the creative to accept a different artist to produce the art and meet the deadlines. There really is nothing wrong about this and might be necessary due to many factors which the creative professional has no control over. A turn of ones health for instance is an obvious reason where this might be needed. Its also there to protect the publisher from having a creative jump ship after the very first printing to a new publisher for that ‘Greener Grass” As beautiful as the “Ant” book is it’s history is a very real example of why this is a necessity.

5: How does whether or not Bluewater turns a profit relate to any of this? You're happy with the contract, you trust the company, fine, I will defend you to the ends of the Earth. But for anyone else who may wind up in a similar situation, and you may be in a similar situation [/Arlo Guthrie] what are the options really like, dispassionately, for someone who isn't already signed to the company?[/quote]

Beyond the obvious survivability of Bluewater turning a profit it also represents this. I’ve stated that this industry needs more established players on the field so that there are more options for the creative people to profit from. In this industry there’s many personalities heading their individual companies. And they’re not all as concerned about producing good product as they are about who’s working, and not working for them. There might very well be an editor who wants to give work to an individual, but he’s blocked by a president, or vice president, who has had a run in with the creative during an earlier time in his career. Not very professional, even petty, I know, But believe me it happens all of the time. I’ve experienced this myself at both big publishers. But as anyone well knows, when someone attains greater position and power within their respective company they are always in danger of developing a greater ego to go along with it. Remember that old adage “Success has a thousand fathers, but failure is a bastard child” was practically written for this industry

Pat Broderick.

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#559597 - 10/23/09 07:49 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
ChrisW Offline
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Pat, thanks for answering. I didn't even notice any delay, so don't apologize for that.

Like I say, I think the main problem was the perception that you were signing away your rights and weren't even getting paid upfront. I'm genuinely interested in what can happen if Bluewater isn't giving you a page rate up-front. From a creator's standpoint, you're already doing the work for free, you have nothing else to lose, so you're practically guaranteed to put down the best work you're able to do, that you're most interested in doing. In any field, if you like what you're doing, the work you do becomes distinctive, and cranking out pages for free, you'd damned well better like doing them.

I and some (not all) of the commenters here just don't want to see you getting taken advantage of like that. Comic book creators and fans have fought for too long in defense of creators' rights just to roll over in the name of getting more established players on the field. That's like women complaining 'where have all the good men gone' and thus inviting a bunch of pimps to have their way.

Synchronistically enough, I have just now Googled Bluewater to confirm what I had been suspecting from this thread, that Bluewater is the one who made those Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin comics on the rack at my local bookstore (not comic book store, sigh). I saw the Hillary one first, and had a Whiskey Tango Foxtrot moment. Then I saw the Palin one and thought it was either the most brilliant concept I'd ever heard of or the worst possible thing to ever happen (which isn't much different from how I saw Sarah herself, and I say this as a big Palin fan).

I agree with you about having more established players on the field, let's put it that way. We, the criticizers on this thread, just see Bluewater as no different than any other potentially-backstabbing publishers, and want to make sure you and the other creators aren't setting yourself up for failure. At least Jack Kirby and Jerry Siegel made a good living getting screwed by the companies they worked with. If you're working for free, you don't even get that. It seems barely above vanity press, where you pay for the priviledge of getting published.

We care about you [/Oprah hug], that's the simplest way to put it.
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#559598 - 10/23/09 08:59 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: ChrisW]
techmann Offline
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Originally Posted By: ChrisW
Pat, thanks for answering. I didn't even notice any delay, so don't apologize for that.

Like I say, I think the main problem was the perception that you were signing away your rights and weren't even getting paid upfront. I'm genuinely interested in what can happen if Bluewater isn't giving you a page rate up-front. From a creator's standpoint, you're already doing the work for free, you have nothing else to lose, so you're practically guaranteed to put down the best work you're able to do, that you're most interested in doing. In any field, if you like what you're doing, the work you do becomes distinctive, and cranking out pages for free, you'd damned well better like doing them.

I and some (not all) of the commenters here just don't want to see you getting taken advantage of like that. Comic book creators and fans have fought for too long in defense of creators' rights just to roll over in the name of getting more established players on the field. That's like women complaining 'where have all the good men gone' and thus inviting a bunch of pimps to have their way.

Synchronistically enough, I have just now Googled Bluewater to confirm what I had been suspecting from this thread, that Bluewater is the one who made those Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin comics on the rack at my local bookstore (not comic book store, sigh). I saw the Hillary one first, and had a Whiskey Tango Foxtrot moment. Then I saw the Palin one and thought it was either the most brilliant concept I'd ever heard of or the worst possible thing to ever happen (which isn't much different from how I saw Sarah herself, and I say this as a big Palin fan).

I agree with you about having more established players on the field, let's put it that way. We, the criticizers on this thread, just see Bluewater as no different than any other potentially-backstabbing publishers, and want to make sure you and the other creators aren't setting yourself up for failure. At least Jack Kirby and Jerry Siegel made a good living getting screwed by the companies they worked with. If you're working for free, you don't even get that. It seems barely above vanity press, where you pay for the priviledge of getting published.

We care about you [/Oprah hug], that's the simplest way to put it.


Chris
I really appreciate the concern everyone is showing about this matter, but I can assure you, all of you, that I did get paid. And will be again. and hopefully again and again.
The worst part about this whole thing is that in my opinion Darren really didn’t deserver the bad press. I was totally aware of their percentage after expenses and was able to work a deal around that. the book was done and shipped and I was paid and pleased. What wasn’t pleasant was finding out that there were creators out there who knew full well going into their deal that their was a chance that if the sales were soft they would not make anything, then jump on the guy after the success of the political books became public.
It was great to find out that you saw the books in a different venue other than a comic shop. That spells hope for the industry. The direct shop business was wonderful in the beginning but in the end has become the beast. Its controlled tightly, puts a huge burden on the storeowners. And in its environment became a place rather unfriendly to a large portion of the buying market.
This industry needs a wider, more competitive layout of publishers. But its nearly impossible for this to come about with only direct distribution as the sole means of getting your product out there.
There’s also an extremely untapped resource being neglected. And that’s the many creative talents out there that have been shut out of this business. All of us can sell amongst the best. And we can produce for long hauls. Don’t you think its time that the majors woke up to this and use tried talent to steer the pipeline.
Pat broderick

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#559600 - 10/23/09 10:55 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
ChrisW Offline
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I'm in favor of multiple distribution points. When I saw the Hillary/Sarah books on the comics racks, I practically had to slap myself to be sure I was seeing what was there. I'm sexist, as much as I like Sarah Palin (and I do), I don't want her to be President. And the others in "Female Force" don't even have that much credibility. Even Condi (much as I like her too).

But as far as bringing in new readers, the best thing the comics medium can do is attract female readers, and (I'm sexist) the best way to do that is to give female readers what they want, cool chicks doing cool things. I have said for years that the comics medium could be saved if only we find a way to do good romance comics and distribute them where females look for reading material. [And figure out how to market those books for 40-year old women in a way that won't offend 14-year old girls, and vice-versa] I would never in a million years have thought of "Female Force", but it's either a horrible idea and whoever came up with it should be fired, or the Next Best Thing.

I agree about the direct market, it's a good thing the way a shoe store is a good thing, since everybody needs shoes, and the market has grown to the point where there is room for a store that sells nothing but shoes. I certainly wondered how these comics about female politicians wound up on the spinner rack in my local bookstore, even as I looked for PAD's "X-Factor" and Miller/Lee's "All Star Batman". As someone looking at the covers, this is either a horrible idea, or something I want to see succeed. I do hope you succeed, and reap the rewards of your success. There are far too many examples of people who didn't. And Bluewater has done whatever it takes (I don't know what it takes) to compete on spinner racks. A familiar politician's face sticking out next to Batman and the Hulk, you'll either be repelled or interested. It's a great idea, and I hope the comics medium benefits even if it turns out not to work for you. Although I hope it works for you, so you can do more comics that people want to read and pay for.

Not just the political biographies, but the not-paying people up front, it's a great idea. If the business part is morally-sound, I'm all in favor of it. You may fail, but you'll achieve more with failing than all the high-paid-work-for-hire artists that ever were or ever will be.

We (the critics) just need evidence that the artists going along with a given company are getting paid what they're worth. As an example, let's say you're the next Gil Kane, we want you to profit the way Gil Kane deserved to profit, and we want to know that your rights are protected and the company respects your contribution the way Gil Kane should have been treated. Once that's been assured for us fans, then hey, sucks that it turned out so badly, but it's not like you didn't know the consequences in advance.

Really, all we ask is that a future Gil Kane won't be treated by Bluewater (or anyone else) the way the real Gil Kane was treated. Simple enough, no one gets into comics publishing without knowing the history, anyone who could actually make a difference knows how Gil Kane was treated, that takes care of 90% of the problem right there.

But to defend the creators of a given work, even if it's a Princess Di biography, we want the particular writer/penciller/inkers to have control of their work. If it means you all die of starvation, we want you all to control your work. If someone else buys the rights, then we want you to make a decent living regardless.
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#559609 - 10/24/09 08:19 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: ChrisW]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Originally Posted By: ChrisW
I and some (not all) of the commenters here just don't want to see you getting taken advantage of like that.

Okay, show of hands. Who wants to see Pat get taken advantage of?


Originally Posted By: ChrisW
I have just now Googled Bluewater to confirm what I had been suspecting from this thread, that Bluewater is the one who made those Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin comics

That boy is quick! America rests easier with highspeed troops like Chrissie defending her.
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#559647 - 10/24/09 09:50 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
ChrisW Offline
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Allen, you're a dick. Do you have any intention of changing that?
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#559661 - 10/25/09 12:44 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: ChrisW]
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As soon as you decide to stop being an ignoramus. Deal?
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#559693 - 10/25/09 08:38 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
ChrisW Offline
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You just keep living up to the standard. That 11B's read comic books because they're too stupid to read anything else.
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#559699 - 10/25/09 09:04 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: ChrisW]
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And FM's and TM's (which have lots of pictures). We were the ones who constantly had to correct all the non-11 series on SOP. So the exchanges between you and me are not surprising.
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#573283 - 06/13/10 06:43 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.
Bela Lugosi's Tales from the Grave? What an interesting concept! Early 2010? Not too far off!

Hey, anybody think I'll be banned again if I point out this still hasn't solicited?
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#573299 - 06/13/10 05:37 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Paul W. Sondersted, Jr. Offline
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You were banned?

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#573301 - 06/13/10 05:46 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.]
Paul W. Sondersted, Jr. Offline
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In any case, this was posted on their Facebook Page on June 9 (definitely still not early 2010, though)...

"We're getting closer guys. Pages are about all inked. Colored. Lettered. Getting ready to show it to Diamond Distribution soon. I'm not lying. This book is going to be like nothing else on the stands. Pure Bela Lugosi classic horror delivered with today's cutting edge talents and rolled up in Monster Kid creepy goodness."

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#573305 - 06/13/10 08:49 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.
You were banned?

Yeah. I think Pat Broderick told on me when I said, "Fuck you, too, Kerry."

That's pretty hilarious stuff from the Facebook page. When someone feels they have to say upfront, "I'm not lying," it usually means they're at least not telling the whole truth.

The inking, coloring and lettering wasn't done months ago? See, that's what happens when you don't pay people. I hate to say I Told You So, but... no, actually I don't hate it at all.
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#579876 - 11/14/10 04:17 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
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Aaaaand the first issue finally showed up! Well, I say "first issue" but we know it'll probably be the only issue, at least for the forseeable future as no furhter issues have been solicited.

Anyway, it's not bad. Overall, the art is very modern looking, not as close to the feel of the old Warren mags as Dark Horse's new Creepy series (which has been consistently good and is on #4 now), so I'd rate this a couple of notches lower than that. If while waiting you forgot about poor Bela's new comic, that's understandable, but now it is finally available.
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#581065 - 12/19/10 03:36 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
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Soliciting for an inker on a Bluewater title for no pay:

http://www.digitalwebbing.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153272
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#581069 - 12/19/10 09:14 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
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Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Soliciting for an inker on a Bluewater title for no pay:

http://www.digitalwebbing.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153272


You should apply for the gig.
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#581089 - 12/19/10 04:09 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: THE Anti-Hunter]
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I was putting it up so you could apply. Seeing as how you don't have a job.
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#582561 - 01/21/11 01:53 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
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Check out the grammar on this solicitation:

http://www.digitalwebbing.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153598
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#582563 - 01/21/11 09:05 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
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That was pretty painful to read. I guess Gregg Paulson is the art director, not the writer. It still doesn't inspire confidence, though.

His own art isn't bad, actually:

http://greggpaulsen.deviantart.com/

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#582564 - 01/21/11 09:23 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Peter Urkowitz]
Alexander Ness Offline
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I think that for the market they exist in Bluewater is doing ok. It is a problem though that their business model is so about working for exposure more than it is about money. Because ultimate, nobody does things for free, or shouldn't. Someone, somewhere in the chain of product, is making money.

agreed about Paulsen's art, Peter.

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#585844 - 05/17/11 08:40 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
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Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Aaaaand the first issue finally showed up! Well, I say "first issue" but we know it'll probably be the only issue, at least for the forseeable future as no furhter issues have been solicited.

Second issue solicited this month. Everybody got their copy reserved?
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#585975 - 05/20/11 02:14 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
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Holy crap. Check this out:

http://www.digitalwebbing.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155529

Apparently, Bluewater is now making their unauthorized biography comics "creator-owned." Meaning, they won't even have to pay people to work on them! Can this operation get any slimier?
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#593467 - 11/24/11 01:14 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
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Originally Posted By: Pat Broderick, Tuesday, Octo 20, 2009:
I’m in the middle of the Shatner project we should be seeing some movement on my own properties around the Summer of next year.

The first issue of Man O War just solicited this month. Still waiting on the rest.

I almost ordered Bluewater's bio of Jack Kirby (for which I'm sure the Kirby estate gave approval and received a large payment), until I had the sneaking suspicion the material is likely lifted from Comic Book Comics (which puts the story of young Jacob Kurtzberg in context with the history of the beginnings of the American comic book industry) and Pure Imagination's Jack Magic (produced by Greg Theakston, one of Kirby's associates).




Oh, and I'm still waiting for Bela Lugosi #'s 2 and 3, Kerry.
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#593921 - 12/09/11 09:58 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
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Penciler wanted ad. No pay, but you get to keep your artwork!
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#593953 - 12/10/11 09:36 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
ChrisW Offline
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What if your sneaking suspicion is wrong and *actually* the material is likely lifted from Joe Simon's "The Comic Book Makers" and Gerard Jones' "Men of Tomorrow"? You could be missing out.
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#593969 - 12/10/11 05:33 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: ChrisW]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Either way, it's likely just a retread of material that can be found elsewhere, more competently executed.
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#593986 - 12/11/11 03:56 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
ChrisW Offline
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It still depends on your sneaking suspicion being correct. There's a million valid reasons not to buy someone's book, why not go with one of those instead? Or at least pretend to be doing that.
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#593991 - 12/11/11 11:18 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: ChrisW]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Whatsamatter, Weemie? Upset that you can't defend Kerry Gammill's soliciting for *TWO ISSUES* of Bela Lugosi that he hasn't delivered? I pre-ordered them, did you? And it's *BLUEWATER*, asshole. Look at the cover and compare the caricature of Jack Kirby with the one from Comic Book Comics. At least.
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"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
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#594005 - 12/11/11 05:09 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
ChrisW Offline
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Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
It must be very important to you.
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If This Be... PayPal!!!

"I think ChrisW is the funniest man in entertainment still alive..."
-- the perceptive Tom Spurgeon

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#601820 - 01/25/13 07:09 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: ChrisW]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
The third issues of Kerry Gammill's Lugosi comic still hasn't come out, but this appeared:

http://www.themusiczoo.com/product/15492...lectric-Guitar/


I would be interested to know how this came about. Pretty neat.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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