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#556845 - 09/09/09 04:16 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: THE Anti-Hunter]
Alexander Ness Online   shocked
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Registered: 09/17/03
Posts: 3840
Loc: Minnesota
I agree Hunter.

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#556847 - 09/09/09 05:11 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: THE Anti-Hunter]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: THE Anti-Hunter
Bluewater, thanks for coming on and actually weighing in on this topic.

Hunter, thanks for quoting the whole post. Try following Peter's link and you just might notice that it was a prepared canned response. There's no way of knowing if "Bluewater" here is actually Darren G. Davis (although I suspect it is) or a stooge; or somebody else just fooling around with the copy/paste function.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#556849 - 09/09/09 05:48 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Kirth Offline
Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 1176
Loc: Chicago, Illinois
..

True enough.

Davis doesn't even return his employees calls, why would he post on Comicon?

..
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It does not have to be that way. You do not have to act that way. You are hurting people. Please stop.


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#556850 - 09/09/09 05:54 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Kirth]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Kirth
Davis doesn't even return his employees calls, why would he post on Comicon?


If they are not being paid, can they be called employees? Technically?

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#556859 - 09/09/09 06:53 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Joe Lee]
Carlton Donaghe Offline
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Registered: 11/23/98
Posts: 1619
Loc: the American Desert
Dear Bluewater, if you have a staff (that is, more than one person), do THEY get paid "if and when" the books become profitable?

Or, which I would bet is the case, do you have PAID EMPLOYEES who earn paychecks?

Why should anyone get paid, including this Davis guy, BEFORE the writers and artists?

How about this-- if you can't get any artists to GIVE you stories to publish, could your secretary and marketing people--that is, your PAID EMPLOYEES--put out a book on their own?
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Without Wax,
Carlton Donaghe
somewhere along the Rio Grande

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#556867 - 09/09/09 09:12 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: THE Anti-Hunter]
techmann Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 243
We've talked about the comics publisher Bluewater Productions a few times around here. Now Rich Johnston has a new article about them and the contracts they offer freelancers:

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2009/09/07/getting-in-deep-with-bluewater-productions/

Apparently, most of their creators don't get an initial page rate, but work for a percentage of the profits. This is fine if a book does well, but it can result in the creators earning nothing if the book sells poorly or is cancelled. Also, it's an unusual arrangement in a work-for-hire setting, where the creator does not own the rights to the work.

There are lots more details in the article.

(I should note that our friend and frequent Comicon poster Pat Broderick has worked for Bluewater and expressed his satisfaction with the deal he got from them. It is not my intention to stir up dirty laundry here, Pat. I genuinely want to see Bluewater succeed. But this is an interesting topic, and I think people will want to know about it.)


Well .. I guess a few people are waiting for my reply to this… here you go.
I’m happy with my contract with Bluewater..HAPPY… here’s why. Darren was up front with me from the get-go. And we worked out a deal that I could not get with any other publisher, independent or otherwise, period. And I tried. I shopped my properties around. One publisher did want one of my properties, but the economy changed and he wasn’t as secure as he was in the beginning. I shopped it to one of the top four and was told that my style was dated and writing cliché. Cool again. No problem. It was his decision; his style is also dated in a style very much attached to two very popular artist of the same era. But it’s cool. And that company has a fixed profit set in all of their deals with creator owned properties, which they accept. I offered it to another independent company and they accepted it but wanted to own TOTALLY into infinity. Not such a good deal, afterall I’m still being screwed by one of the big two over a simple royalty deal that they know they owe me. And they did invite me to sue them in the county in New York State where they registered. So that’s an ongoing process. Darren was the most honest upfront gentleman to deal with and my properties will be published under his banner next year. I do not know the details of others contract deals with him. But let me remind you that Diamond changed their independent publisher policies a while back. That meant that any publisher whose orders did not meet Diamonds minimum level would be dropped by diamond. What made diamond change this policy is their business. Some people got very hurt by this change across the board. But I’m sure that it was a sound decision on Diamond part to do this. Currently I’m working on my second property for them and all are being very patient with my production pace. I’ve also been hurt by the downturn in the economy. Thank you President Bush very much for that hit. My hours teaching was cut from 40 hr’s a week to 15. But I saw this coming {Who didn’t last year} I have two 30 yr old sons who had to move back in with me because they both had careers connected to the housing industry. I’ll get my BFA later this year in November and more opportunities will open up for me in education. These are hard times but if your not willing to adapt then you will get hurt period. And hell,,, I’m 55 years old… I lost a very good living back in 95 along with many other talented people. And we’re still hurting. I climbed into a vodka bottle for a couple of years over it. I lost close to a half million in property. IT SUCKED,, We all saw it coming individually but no one would listen to us. HOW MANY MULTIPLE COVERS FOR AN ISSUE OF X-MEN IS ETHICAL!!! Yet you all bought your issue of the death of Superman. Even after Harlan Ellison got on the air and said”hey look,, Supes has died how many times? 25 or 30!!!
Point is this. The Internet allows people to bitch…. And an article about an issue that hasn’t been substantiated is still hearsay. But put it on some forum and it gives it weight.
Allen… No Vincent Price presents was not Green Lantern, or Doom 2099, or the Micronauts. It was Vincent Price Presents for Christ sake. I liked it. I drew it, it was fun. William Shatner’s Man o War is Bill Shatner’s Man O War. I personally like that mans body of work over my lifetime. Still do, and feel privileged to be working on this book period.
Final word on my part about this is this. When you go into a contracted deal READ THE CONTRACT for heavens sake. Work hard,. And still understand that this isn’t the 80’s or 90’s. Those days are long behind us now. And if your book isn’t selling as well as your publishers political books. Quite BITCHING…neither did my Vincent Price book, and I’m not slamming the guy.
You’re pretty pathetic.
Pat Broderick

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#556872 - 09/09/09 09:48 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
Peter Urkowitz Offline
Member

Registered: 08/28/00
Posts: 3231
Loc: Salem, MA, USA
Pat, thanks very much for commenting! I'm sure everyone here wishes you much success. And your speaking out in defense of Bluewater should carry a lot of weight in their favor.

Dang, though, it must really be tough times in this industry, when publishers have to resort to business models like this. Best of luck, though, hope it does pay off in the end.

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#556880 - 09/09/09 10:35 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Peter Urkowitz]
techmann Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 243
Pat, thanks very much for commenting! I'm sure everyone here wishes you much success. And your speaking out in defense of Bluewater should carry a lot of weight in their favor.

Dang, though, it must really be tough times in this industry, when publishers have to resort to business models like this. Best of luck, though, hope it does pay off in the end.


It’s not a statement about the state of the industry. As you’ve so clearly pointed out. So let’s put it clearer terms, shall we? It’s a statement about the quality of the man running the ship at DC. All he has to do is pick up his phone and say ”Pay this man every dime we owe him for every use of his designs and characters for every show, animated series,Action figure, Game piece, reprint,and sales of every DVD, sold at any outlet from the first airing, It’s your departments job, that’s why you get paid”
Seems simple doesn’t it PAUL!!!!
Pat Broderick

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#556883 - 09/09/09 10:48 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
charlie Offline
Member

Registered: 05/18/01
Posts: 477
Originally Posted By: techmann
These are hard times but if your not willing to adapt then you will get hurt period. And hell,,, I’m 55 years old… I lost a very good living back in 95 along with many other talented people. And we’re still hurting. I climbed into a vodka bottle for a couple of years over it. I lost close to a half million in property. IT SUCKED,, We all saw it coming individually but no one would listen to us. HOW MANY MULTIPLE COVERS FOR AN ISSUE OF X-MEN IS ETHICAL!!! Yet you all bought your issue of the death of Superman. Even after Harlan Ellison got on the air and said”hey look,, Supes has died how many times? 25 or 30!!!
Point is this. The Internet allows people to bitch…. And an article about an issue that hasn’t been substantiated is still hearsay. But put it on some forum and it gives it weight.
Allen… No Vincent Price presents was not Green Lantern, or Doom 2099, or the Micronauts. It was Vincent Price Presents for Christ sake. I liked it. I drew it, it was fun. William Shatner’s Man o War is Bill Shatner’s Man O War. I personally like that mans body of work over my lifetime. Still do, and feel privileged to be working on this book period.
Final word on my part about this is this. When you go into a contracted deal READ THE CONTRACT for heavens sake. Work hard,. And still understand that this isn’t the 80’s or 90’s. Those days are long behind us now. And if your book isn’t selling as well as your publishers political books. Quite BITCHING…neither did my Vincent Price book, and I’m not slamming the guy.
You’re pretty pathetic.
Pat Broderick


Not of of us bought the death of superman and such books. There was a time when a large chunk of readers didn't even buy books based on traditional characters like Batman and Spider-man. Many of us bought books based on the talent involved during that time. That audience was not cultivated enough.

Anyhow, not familiar with bluewater but your contract includes ownership, and when you own something it's worth the risk. Doing work for hire under the contract described seems foolish


Edited by charlie (09/09/09 10:57 PM)

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#556886 - 09/09/09 11:14 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: charlie]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
It's a pretty straight-forward contract, and no one is holding a gun to anyone's head to sign, but it does seem like a pretty bad deal unless like Pat, you have an existing fanbase, name recognition, or something else going for the book.

Wouldn't most unknown creators be better off self-publishing? Or if the goal is to eventually work for Marvel or DC, is ANY published work with a real publisher, worth it for the credit and experience?

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