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#559256 - 10/18/09 11:12 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: ChrisW]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: ChrisW
Hey, he calls a Special Forces paratrooper a "supply clerk pussy", it's not like he has a grasp on what could go wrong. So of course he'll publicly brag about bullying old men and comics pros. And have very few legitimate things to say otherwise.

Necro has a good point now and again, but I agree they are few. Plus, it's hard to take them seriously when they are lost in the sea of bullshit posturing and potshots that are most of his posts.

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#559261 - 10/18/09 11:59 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: charlie]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: charlie
...what else does the publisher offer besides money. Will they be willing to use the limited budget to promote the talent involved as part of the marketing strategy? that is valuble in itself to people looking to work their way in or back in to comics.


Yeah, could they give the artists a free page in the comic to do whatever they wanted, self promotion, bio, or ad for their freelance business?

One of the very first freelance jobs I ever had was doing (innocuous) editorial cartoons for a local monthly business newspaper and I got paid some cash, but mostly in trade, as a 2 inch classified boxed ad in the paper, which I used to promote myself as a freelance graphic designer. I did it for 8 months and made more money on any one of the four or five jobs I got from the ad than I did from all of the cartoons combined.

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#559278 - 10/19/09 10:04 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7089
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
(you even told a guy in this thread to fuck off over nothing)

Really? I told someone to "fuck off"? I don't seem to recall that.


Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
but if I don't like something I should "LEAVE?"

Tony did a few installments of his blog back in 1998 about how shitty Usenet was, how it had no rules and people he didn't like couldn't get banned. Many people told him that's just the way it is, and if he didn't like it, don't post his spam there. I'm guessing you can figure out what his reaction was.


Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
Other people aren't supposed to give you a hard time about stuff?

I welcome confrontation gladly. But if your continual reference to one old story somehow relates to your own personal sexual fantasies, we need to address that.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#559282 - 10/19/09 11:10 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7089
And Chrissie's just upset because he's getting his rear eschelon handed to him in the Gutters.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#559300 - 10/19/09 09:50 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
ChrisW Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
Right, Allen is "kicking my ass" by bringing up a rape victim's sexual history in hopes of keeping the rapist from being punished. Way to go. And he doesn't acknoledge that I haven't been in a supply room for nearly a year. And he honestly doesn't remember saying:

Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Hey, fuck you too, Kerry.


But he thinks he has something to say anyway. Isn't that cute. That's an 11B for you. He just keeps talking anyway. Look at how he tries dragging Tony Isabella into the thread. It's like he aspires to live up to the worst stereotypes about soldiers.

Pat, can you give any specifics on what the contract does or doesn't say? I'll understand if you can't, but you at least imply major headaches and rip-offs with larger companies, that make the ostensible work-for-hire policies of Bluewater more palatable. If you're not getting paid and you still think this contract is worthwhile, fine, but from those of us on the outside, you deserve maximum leverage if your work starts turning a profit, and based on what's been said on this thread, it doesn't sound like you really have that chance. We the audience want you to make as much money as possible, and to have as much cvontrol over the work. If there's any truth to Bluewater taking the ownership, then the best you can do is hope it's not successful enough to bring up the ownership issues. Sucks to be you I guess.
_________________________
If This Be... PayPal!!!

"I think ChrisW is the funniest man in entertainment still alive..."
-- the perceptive Tom Spurgeon

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#559302 - 10/19/09 10:17 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: ChrisW]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7089
Originally Posted By: ChrisW
Right, Allen is "kicking my ass" by bringing up a rape victim's sexual history in hopes of keeping the rapist from being punished. Way to go.

Nothing you or I say on a message board will change what happens or has happened to Roman Polanski. I am merely laying out the facts in the face of your hate-mongering and petty jealousy.


Originally Posted By: ChrisW
And he doesn't acknoledge that I haven't been in a supply room for nearly a year.

Golly! Sorry I don't keep a closer watch on your career there, Chrissie! You finally make it to the S-4?


Originally Posted By: ChrisW
And he honestly doesn't remember saying: "Hey, fuck you too, Kerry."

Go back and read the exchange between Joe and myself again, Chrissie. Pay real close attention this time.


Originally Posted By: ChrisW
Look at how he tries dragging Tony Isabella into the thread.

If only I could've worked Al Gore or Vince Foster in there, I'm sure you'd have no quarrel.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#559315 - 10/20/09 10:59 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
techmann Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 243
ChrisW
Pat, can you give any specifics on what the contract does or doesn't say? I'll understand if you can't, but you at least imply major headaches and rip-offs with larger companies, that make the ostensible work-for-hire policies of Bluewater more palatable. If you're not getting paid and you still think this contract is worthwhile, fine, but from those of us on the outside, you deserve maximum leverage if your work starts turning a profit, and based on what's been said on this thread, it doesn't sound like you really have that chance. We the audience want you to make as much money as possible, and to have as much cvontrol over the work. If there's any truth to Bluewater taking the ownership, then the best you can do is hope it's not successful enough to bring up the ownership issues. Sucks to be you I guess.

Chris....

Openly discuss the specifics about my personal contract with Bluewater? NO. And here’s why. It’s very unethical to discuss the details of any agreement with anyone other than those the agreement is with, and even only then if their name is on the contract. And in an open discussion, never, even after the contracted time of the contract has passed it’s still unethical, and likely illegal to discuss and details of any contract with anyone other than those whose names are on the dotted line period. Now other than generalities I’ve never discussed the details of my contracts with DC. We are still sorting out all of the back listed properties which they owe me compensation for. And they’re growing with the latest distribution of their DVD sales.
My contract with Bluewater is based on my history in the industry and therefore it could be considered “Specific” in our agreement.
Simply put, if a creator does not like what he reads within the submitted contract then they should make the change they want, note the change to the other party, and negotiate an agreement. Nothing in my contract reverts any property I’m creating to Bluewater. They do have the right to bring in another creative crew if my work falls under professional standards, or I’m so terminally late that they must change creative team to meet the deadline. But the ownership is still mine and as I’m in the middle of the Shatner project we should be seeing some movement on my own properties around the Summer of next year.
Pat Broderick

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#559327 - 10/20/09 02:59 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: techmann

Simply put, if a creator does not like what he reads within the submitted contract then they should make the change they want, note the change to the other party, and negotiate an agreement.


That may be true, but if the contract states that the artist will get paid in the event a particular set of circumstances, say if the book makes X dollars, my understanding is that the set of circumstances needs to be a reasonable possibility or that contract is arguably not a valid contract.

My guess is that many of the artists with a beef against Bluewater might actually have a case.

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Pat try to click on the quote button
Here at the bottom of the box ----> ---->

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#559336 - 10/20/09 04:45 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Joe Lee]
techmann Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 243
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
[quote=techmann]
Simply put, if a creator does not like what he reads within the submitted contract then they should make the change they want, note the change to the other party, and negotiate an agreement.


That may be true, but if the contract states that the artist will get paid in the event a particular set of circumstances, say if the book makes X dollars, my understanding is that the set of circumstances needs to be a reasonable possibility or that contract is arguably not a valid contract.

My guess is that many of the artists with a beef against Bluewater might actually have a case.

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Pat try to click on the quote button
Here at the bottom of the box ----> ---->
{Thanks Joe...I knew it was there... I just choose to needle Allen}


If circumstances being “After cost”? then there’s an ignorance at work here Joe. And whats “Reasonable” in today’s market. Here’s an actual case. My Vincent Price was ordered by a local shop here and they wanted me in as a guest to sign the books. The store owner ordered it correctly, but when it shipped his store never received it. When he inquired he was told that the shipment was ‘Short” and that his order was ‘Adjusted”. Then four weeks later the books arrived at his store. When he inquired he was told that they “Found “His books and shipped them right out.
Is it reasonable to assume that the distributor made an ‘Honest’ mistake? Or is he intentionally letting the independents’ books sit on the warehouse floor for over a month, beyond any point where the publisher can see the ‘Real” orders and a return on his investment.
If the contract says “After cost” it is reasonable for the creative to request to see the total spread sheet, which I might add Darren will do. What if the creator doesn’t believe the sheet? Is it reasonable for them to challenge the numbers? Is it reasonable for creators to imply that the success of the political biographies should entitle them to a “Page Rate”. When does this all just become “sour grapes”
I spent some time going over my contract with them. I made sure that it was working for both of us, Bluewater and me.
I didn’t make great money on the first printing. But I will be paid every time that story goes to print.
And not some ridiculous reprint rate, but the same structure as if it was first being printed and shipped, forever.
Pat Broderick

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#559340 - 10/20/09 04:51 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7089
Originally Posted By: techmann
I will be paid every time that story goes to print.

And how many times do you think it will be printed, Pat?
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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