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#559598 - 10/23/09 08:59 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: ChrisW]
techmann Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/07
Posts: 243
Originally Posted By: ChrisW
Pat, thanks for answering. I didn't even notice any delay, so don't apologize for that.

Like I say, I think the main problem was the perception that you were signing away your rights and weren't even getting paid upfront. I'm genuinely interested in what can happen if Bluewater isn't giving you a page rate up-front. From a creator's standpoint, you're already doing the work for free, you have nothing else to lose, so you're practically guaranteed to put down the best work you're able to do, that you're most interested in doing. In any field, if you like what you're doing, the work you do becomes distinctive, and cranking out pages for free, you'd damned well better like doing them.

I and some (not all) of the commenters here just don't want to see you getting taken advantage of like that. Comic book creators and fans have fought for too long in defense of creators' rights just to roll over in the name of getting more established players on the field. That's like women complaining 'where have all the good men gone' and thus inviting a bunch of pimps to have their way.

Synchronistically enough, I have just now Googled Bluewater to confirm what I had been suspecting from this thread, that Bluewater is the one who made those Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin comics on the rack at my local bookstore (not comic book store, sigh). I saw the Hillary one first, and had a Whiskey Tango Foxtrot moment. Then I saw the Palin one and thought it was either the most brilliant concept I'd ever heard of or the worst possible thing to ever happen (which isn't much different from how I saw Sarah herself, and I say this as a big Palin fan).

I agree with you about having more established players on the field, let's put it that way. We, the criticizers on this thread, just see Bluewater as no different than any other potentially-backstabbing publishers, and want to make sure you and the other creators aren't setting yourself up for failure. At least Jack Kirby and Jerry Siegel made a good living getting screwed by the companies they worked with. If you're working for free, you don't even get that. It seems barely above vanity press, where you pay for the priviledge of getting published.

We care about you [/Oprah hug], that's the simplest way to put it.


Chris
I really appreciate the concern everyone is showing about this matter, but I can assure you, all of you, that I did get paid. And will be again. and hopefully again and again.
The worst part about this whole thing is that in my opinion Darren really didnít deserver the bad press. I was totally aware of their percentage after expenses and was able to work a deal around that. the book was done and shipped and I was paid and pleased. What wasnít pleasant was finding out that there were creators out there who knew full well going into their deal that their was a chance that if the sales were soft they would not make anything, then jump on the guy after the success of the political books became public.
It was great to find out that you saw the books in a different venue other than a comic shop. That spells hope for the industry. The direct shop business was wonderful in the beginning but in the end has become the beast. Its controlled tightly, puts a huge burden on the storeowners. And in its environment became a place rather unfriendly to a large portion of the buying market.
This industry needs a wider, more competitive layout of publishers. But its nearly impossible for this to come about with only direct distribution as the sole means of getting your product out there.
Thereís also an extremely untapped resource being neglected. And thatís the many creative talents out there that have been shut out of this business. All of us can sell amongst the best. And we can produce for long hauls. Donít you think its time that the majors woke up to this and use tried talent to steer the pipeline.
Pat broderick

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#559600 - 10/23/09 10:55 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: techmann]
ChrisW Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
I'm in favor of multiple distribution points. When I saw the Hillary/Sarah books on the comics racks, I practically had to slap myself to be sure I was seeing what was there. I'm sexist, as much as I like Sarah Palin (and I do), I don't want her to be President. And the others in "Female Force" don't even have that much credibility. Even Condi (much as I like her too).

But as far as bringing in new readers, the best thing the comics medium can do is attract female readers, and (I'm sexist) the best way to do that is to give female readers what they want, cool chicks doing cool things. I have said for years that the comics medium could be saved if only we find a way to do good romance comics and distribute them where females look for reading material. [And figure out how to market those books for 40-year old women in a way that won't offend 14-year old girls, and vice-versa] I would never in a million years have thought of "Female Force", but it's either a horrible idea and whoever came up with it should be fired, or the Next Best Thing.

I agree about the direct market, it's a good thing the way a shoe store is a good thing, since everybody needs shoes, and the market has grown to the point where there is room for a store that sells nothing but shoes. I certainly wondered how these comics about female politicians wound up on the spinner rack in my local bookstore, even as I looked for PAD's "X-Factor" and Miller/Lee's "All Star Batman". As someone looking at the covers, this is either a horrible idea, or something I want to see succeed. I do hope you succeed, and reap the rewards of your success. There are far too many examples of people who didn't. And Bluewater has done whatever it takes (I don't know what it takes) to compete on spinner racks. A familiar politician's face sticking out next to Batman and the Hulk, you'll either be repelled or interested. It's a great idea, and I hope the comics medium benefits even if it turns out not to work for you. Although I hope it works for you, so you can do more comics that people want to read and pay for.

Not just the political biographies, but the not-paying people up front, it's a great idea. If the business part is morally-sound, I'm all in favor of it. You may fail, but you'll achieve more with failing than all the high-paid-work-for-hire artists that ever were or ever will be.

We (the critics) just need evidence that the artists going along with a given company are getting paid what they're worth. As an example, let's say you're the next Gil Kane, we want you to profit the way Gil Kane deserved to profit, and we want to know that your rights are protected and the company respects your contribution the way Gil Kane should have been treated. Once that's been assured for us fans, then hey, sucks that it turned out so badly, but it's not like you didn't know the consequences in advance.

Really, all we ask is that a future Gil Kane won't be treated by Bluewater (or anyone else) the way the real Gil Kane was treated. Simple enough, no one gets into comics publishing without knowing the history, anyone who could actually make a difference knows how Gil Kane was treated, that takes care of 90% of the problem right there.

But to defend the creators of a given work, even if it's a Princess Di biography, we want the particular writer/penciller/inkers to have control of their work. If it means you all die of starvation, we want you all to control your work. If someone else buys the rights, then we want you to make a decent living regardless.
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"I think ChrisW is the funniest man in entertainment still alive..."
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#559609 - 10/24/09 08:19 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: ChrisW]
Allen Montgomery Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: ChrisW
I and some (not all) of the commenters here just don't want to see you getting taken advantage of like that.

Okay, show of hands. Who wants to see Pat get taken advantage of?


Originally Posted By: ChrisW
I have just now Googled Bluewater to confirm what I had been suspecting from this thread, that Bluewater is the one who made those Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin comics

That boy is quick! America rests easier with highspeed troops like Chrissie defending her.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
ó Bob Kane

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#559647 - 10/24/09 09:50 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
ChrisW Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
Allen, you're a dick. Do you have any intention of changing that?
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If This Be... PayPal!!!

"I think ChrisW is the funniest man in entertainment still alive..."
-- the perceptive Tom Spurgeon

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#559661 - 10/25/09 12:44 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: ChrisW]
Allen Montgomery Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
As soon as you decide to stop being an ignoramus. Deal?
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
ó Bob Kane

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#559693 - 10/25/09 08:38 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
ChrisW Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
You just keep living up to the standard. That 11B's read comic books because they're too stupid to read anything else.
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If This Be... PayPal!!!

"I think ChrisW is the funniest man in entertainment still alive..."
-- the perceptive Tom Spurgeon

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#559699 - 10/25/09 09:04 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: ChrisW]
Allen Montgomery Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
And FM's and TM's (which have lots of pictures). We were the ones who constantly had to correct all the non-11 series on SOP. So the exchanges between you and me are not surprising.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
ó Bob Kane

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#573283 - 06/13/10 06:43 AM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.]
Allen Montgomery Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.
Bela Lugosi's Tales from the Grave? What an interesting concept! Early 2010? Not too far off!

Hey, anybody think I'll be banned again if I point out this still hasn't solicited?
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
ó Bob Kane

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#573299 - 06/13/10 05:37 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Paul W. Sondersted, Jr. Offline
Member

Registered: 07/22/01
Posts: 4593
Loc: Sparks, Nevada, United States
You were banned?

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#573301 - 06/13/10 05:46 PM Re: Bluewater Contracts [Re: Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.]
Paul W. Sondersted, Jr. Offline
Member

Registered: 07/22/01
Posts: 4593
Loc: Sparks, Nevada, United States
In any case, this was posted on their Facebook Page on June 9 (definitely still not early 2010, though)...

"We're getting closer guys. Pages are about all inked. Colored. Lettered. Getting ready to show it to Diamond Distribution soon. I'm not lying. This book is going to be like nothing else on the stands. Pure Bela Lugosi classic horror delivered with today's cutting edge talents and rolled up in Monster Kid creepy goodness."

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