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#574618 - 07/15/10 03:19 PM Re: Q for JB [Re: Ceci n'est pas une chaussette]
Nordberg Offline
Member

Registered: 04/18/10
Posts: 50
Well, it's a whole 'nother matter, too, when the person being hateful and hurtful is themselves so incredibly sensitive and defensive.

"I'm gonna openly call you an asshole, but if you even dare to think to criticize me, you're outta here!"

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#574619 - 07/15/10 03:19 PM Re: Q for JB [Re: Alexander Ness]
Paul W. Sondersted, Jr. Offline
Member

Registered: 07/22/01
Posts: 4593
Loc: Sparks, Nevada, United States
Originally Posted By: Alexander Ness
A libertarian I know who is a sort word choice nazi says it is not hateful or mean to describe a fat person as fat. Nor an ugly person as ugly.

I disagree, but I think Byrne himself might suggest that is his point. Words are specific, and people add meaning and if insult is taken it doesn't mean insult was offered.

Being fat bald and ugly I'm probably not a good one to offer help.


That's pretty much it. It's all in the intention.

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#574620 - 07/15/10 03:22 PM Re: Q for JB [Re: Ceci n'est pas une chaussette]
Alexander Ness Offline
Member

Registered: 09/17/03
Posts: 3692
Loc: Minnesota
Now I think that for most Libertarians and especially the asshole ones, it is all a bunch of hooey to give assholes an excuse to be assholes and tell those they were assholish towards that they weren't inaccurate. But let me say this, standards for beauty and size change, so why shouldn't the words about beauty and size have a similar ability to change in meaning. I am not proud that I am over weight, (although I have lost weight with exercise recently) but in China for example a fat person used to be seen as successful, because, how else could you get fat if you didn't have money. So Fat was viewed as ostentatious, not as gluttony.

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#574621 - 07/15/10 03:28 PM Re: Q for JB [Re: Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.]
Ceci n'est pas une chaussette Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 2822
Originally Posted By: Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.
That's pretty much it. It's all in the intention.


This is pretty much the most ridiculous thing you've ever said. And the list of ridiculous things you've said offers some mighty steep competition.

Language isn't a one-sided exercise, it's an act of communication. The speaker's intent counts for dick if they fail to communicate that intent.
_________________________
"When one says 'Africa,' it refers to Africa in the Euro-colonized sense, not the damn bush country or whatever."
- Ed Gauthier, DCP

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#574622 - 07/15/10 03:30 PM Re: Q for JB [Re: Ceci n'est pas une chaussette]
Paul W. Sondersted, Jr. Offline
Member

Registered: 07/22/01
Posts: 4593
Loc: Sparks, Nevada, United States
Originally Posted By: Ceci n'est pas une chaussette
Originally Posted By: Alexander Ness
A libertarian I know who is a sort word choice nazi says it is not hateful or mean to describe a fat person as fat. Nor an ugly person as ugly.


This is one of many reasons why libertarians tend to come off as viewing the world through some sort of bizarre, socially inept tunnel vision. If you say something knowing it will be hurtful to another person, getting huffy and insisting that, "hey, I'm just being factually accurate! You ARE ugly!" does not magically make it less hurtful.


Isn't there a saying..."You only hurt the ones you love."
Best to hear such things from ones who care.

Of course, I don't believe (uh oh) that JB's intentions were to be hateful. In regards to calling someone an @$$hole? That was more than likely meant to be hurtful, but definitely NOT hateful...IMO.

As in my response to the more level-headed Mr. Ness, it's in the intentions.

Also, one should keep in mind that I don't believe that JB would beat around the bush regarding his intentions. If he was actually hating someone, I believe that he would express it as such.

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#574623 - 07/15/10 03:33 PM Re: Q for JB [Re: Alexander Ness]
Ceci n'est pas une chaussette Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 2822
Originally Posted By: Alexander Ness
But let me say this, standards for beauty and size change, so why shouldn't the words about beauty and size have a similar ability to change in meaning.


They do. "You look like a whore" might not be an insult in a culture that reveres temple prostitutes. It's absolutely an insult in ours though. And it takes a much bigger force of social change than one man's message board huffiness to turn such a statement into a compliment (or even a neutral statement).
_________________________
"When one says 'Africa,' it refers to Africa in the Euro-colonized sense, not the damn bush country or whatever."
- Ed Gauthier, DCP

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#574624 - 07/15/10 03:35 PM Re: Q for JB [Re: Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.]
Ceci n'est pas une chaussette Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 2822
Originally Posted By: Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.
Isn't there a saying..."You only hurt the ones you love."


No. The saying is "you always hurt the one you love," which is an entirely different meaning. And it's not so much a saying as it is song lyrics.

The next line, incidentally, goes, "the one you shouldn't hurt at all."

Hilariously enough, a line from the next verse goes, "you always break the kindest heart with a hasty word you can't recall."

Nice choice of quotes there, Paul.

Quote:
Of course, I don't believe (uh oh) that JB's intentions were to be hateful.


Well sure, you're very fond of mind-reading, and arguments from personal incredulity. We established that ages ago.
_________________________
"When one says 'Africa,' it refers to Africa in the Euro-colonized sense, not the damn bush country or whatever."
- Ed Gauthier, DCP

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#574625 - 07/15/10 03:35 PM Re: Q for JB [Re: Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.]
shjonescrk Online   content
Member

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 1338
Loc: Airdrie, Scotland
Originally Posted By: Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.
Originally Posted By: shjonescrk
Originally Posted By: Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.

I have friends (& some relatives!) who act like @$$holes & a couple of them even look like hookers...to me (and I have told them so), but I have no hatred for them.


"Why, Paul, I look like a hooker. I do so appreciate your honesty."


Sometimes the truth hurts, but telling it like it is does not require hate.

Nice try, though.


But, for most sensible people (not you, obviously), in a situation like this it's best to keep shtum.

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#574626 - 07/15/10 03:40 PM Re: Q for JB [Re: Ceci n'est pas une chaussette]
Paul W. Sondersted, Jr. Offline
Member

Registered: 07/22/01
Posts: 4593
Loc: Sparks, Nevada, United States
Originally Posted By: Ceci n'est pas une chaussette
Originally Posted By: Alexander Ness
But let me say this, standards for beauty and size change, so why shouldn't the words about beauty and size have a similar ability to change in meaning.


They do. "You look like a whore" might not be an insult in a culture that reveres temple prostitutes. It's absolutely an insult in ours though. And it takes a much bigger force of social change than one man's message board huffiness to turn such a statement into a compliment (or even a neutral statement).


Even JB admitted that the comment was a personal prejudice, which indicated to me that he wasn't exactly proud of having such thoughts. The fact that he was willing to admit that it was a fault & NOT a positive attribute, should show how human the man is.

I don't believe that anyone should condone such thoughts & I don't believe that anyone WAS condoning such thoughts, which seems to be the implication from most detractors (and this means anyone who was NOT implying this need not get up in arms).

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#574627 - 07/15/10 03:43 PM Re: Q for JB [Re: shjonescrk]
Paul W. Sondersted, Jr. Offline
Member

Registered: 07/22/01
Posts: 4593
Loc: Sparks, Nevada, United States
Originally Posted By: shjonescrk
Originally Posted By: Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.
Originally Posted By: shjonescrk
[quote=Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.]
I have friends (& some relatives!) who act like @$$holes & a couple of them even look like hookers...to me (and I have told them so), but I have no hatred for them.


"Why, Paul, I look like a hooker. I do so appreciate your honesty."


Sometimes the truth hurts, but telling it like it is does not require hate.

Nice try, though.


Originally Posted By: shjonescrk
But, for most sensible people (not you, obviously), in a situation like this it's best to keep shtum.


Not always. Some people need wake-up calls. Since you are a detractor (and most detractors are heavily in need of wake-up calls), I can see why this concept would elude you.

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