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#588856 - 08/01/11 08:28 PM Peter David is a great writer!
Gerald Offline
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I'm so hung up on Moore, Morrison or DeMatteis that I never really look up any comics by Peter David.

I'm re-reading his Spider-man 2099 and he writes some great and funny dialogue. I heard his Hulk run was excellent but I'm not a big fan of the character.
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#588857 - 08/01/11 08:43 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Gerald]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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I remember enjoying his run on Hulk and X-Factor in the early 90's. I didn't have ready access to a shop for a few years and bought my comics off the spinner rack at the grocery store. Everything I've read by him in the past ten years has been forgettable, at best.
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#588866 - 08/01/11 09:42 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
ChrisW Offline
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The early-90's X-Factor gets my vote for favorite, but his Hulk run is deservedly awesome. The current X-Factor is a lot of fun even though I really don't care about the characters anymore, if I ever did. Shatterstar and Longshot are readable all of a sudden, WTF?

Does anybody else remember the Blasters?
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#588891 - 08/02/11 09:59 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: ChrisW]
IvanJim Offline
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I thought he found the perfect balance for his writing talents on Young Justice. A damned good series that he was derailed by DanDidiot's desire to restart Teen Titans for the 5,673,871st time.

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#588896 - 08/02/11 11:15 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: IvanJim]
Lawson Offline
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Originally Posted By: IvanJim
I thought he found the perfect balance for his writing talents on Young Justice. A damned good series that he was derailed by DanDidiot's desire to restart Teen Titans for the 5,673,871st time.


Agreed.

YOUNG JUSTICE was a fun, charming comic with wonderfully cartoony artwork. It sold pretty well, too. But Dan DiDio ordered it replaced so Geoff Johns could launch, as I.J. says, yet another TITANS start-up, this one all grim 'n gritty. The first story arc, I recall, Deathstroke shot out Impulse's kneecap, forever making Impulse more bitter and somber. Yay, DC.

As for David's other stuff ... I liked his creator-owned FALLEN ANGEL for a while but eventually lost interest (around the time he started charging $4 per copy, ahead of the rest of the industry). I liked his SACHS AND VIOLENS with George Perez.

I've just started reading the first trade collection of his long, celebrated run on THE INCREDIBLE HULK. But the awful chicken-scratch art of Todd McFarlane is making it difficult for me to enjoy. I may be the one fanboy on Earth who doesn't like McFarlane's art.

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#588901 - 08/02/11 11:56 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Lawson]
Joe Lee Offline
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Hey Lawson, weren't you the guy who chased Mr. David away? Are you legally able to talk about him, isn't there some kind of restraining order involved here? grin

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#588906 - 08/02/11 01:00 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
Lawson Offline
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*Choke!*

That rings a bell, maybe. Was that one me or Allen? I remember fighting with him about something.

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#588908 - 08/02/11 01:07 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Lawson]
Charles Reece Offline
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People daring to disagree with his opinions is what drove him away.
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#588909 - 08/02/11 01:11 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Charles Reece]
Lawson Offline
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Registered: 11/11/02
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If you don't like people disagreeing with you, I do not recommend Comicon.

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#588915 - 08/02/11 02:07 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Lawson]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
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I seem to remember disagreeing with him on something as well. Didn't he publicly badmouth a convention organizer for canceling his appearance or something?

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#588918 - 08/02/11 03:07 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
Lawson Offline
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Peter David has publicly fought with many, many, many, many, many people over the years. He's in Harlan Ellison's league, although not having Ellison's money, I don't think he sues as much.

Yeah, David has bad-mouthed show organizers, plural. One of them ran out of cash and canceled David and several other pros who had planned to attend. I think another gave him a bad table but gave Marvel a really good table, which might be because they were Marvel frickin' Comics.

He is perpetually outraged but always entertaining.

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#588919 - 08/02/11 03:11 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Lawson]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Lawson
If you don't like people disagreeing with you, I do not recommend Comicon.

I disagree.
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If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
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#588934 - 08/02/11 09:46 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Lawson]
Joe Lee Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lawson
Peter David has publicly fought with many, many, many, many, many people over the years. He's in Harlan Ellison's league,...
That's a bit of an overstatement.

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#588947 - 08/03/11 07:56 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Lawson]
Stephen Parkes Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lawson
Was that one me or Allen?


Allen chased away Erik Larsen. I think, if we are to pick one person for David being chased away, Ivan Jim was the 'culprit'.


Edited by Stephen Parkes (08/03/11 08:02 AM)

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#588948 - 08/03/11 08:43 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Stephen Parkes]
shjonescrk Offline
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Registered: 10/31/03
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I enjoyed David's run on Spectacular Spider-man with Sal Buscema who was inking his own pencils and who never looked better. At the same time, Michelinie & McFarlane were on Amazing and I thought that, for all the hype, was a bit crap. However, to be fair to McFarlane, he did his best work with David on Hulk. I gave up when the new artist came onboard.


Edited by shjonescrk (08/03/11 08:43 AM)

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#588949 - 08/03/11 08:58 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: shjonescrk]
IvanJim Offline
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Registered: 06/16/01
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I think I was the one who "chased" Peter away. He became quite heated when I pointed out some inaccuracies in his mass characterization of all fans, and didn't pay proper respect to his viewpoint that any way of looking at things other than his own was both moronic and offensive.

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#588956 - 08/03/11 11:17 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: shjonescrk]
Paul W. Sondersted, Jr. Offline
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Originally Posted By: shjonescrk
I gave up when the new artist came onboard.


That would have been Jeff Purves. Indeed a low point when it came to the art (even bringing in Terry Austin & Marie Severin...& others...didn't help). However, Peter David did some really fun storytelling involving the Gray Hulk during this period &...at least for me...it more than made up for the low-grade visuals,

After that Dale Keown showed up & kicked everything back into high-gear!

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#588958 - 08/03/11 11:38 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.]
Alexander Ness Online   shocked
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#588960 - 08/03/11 12:23 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Alexander Ness]
Paul W. Sondersted, Jr. Offline
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D'OH! Great stuff. Jeff Purves definitely had his moments.

That said, his sequential storytelling in the comic book medium was just not up to par...as a whole. This probably explains why his run on Incredible Hulk was his only foray into the medium.

I imagine he's found his niche in the animation field...and more power to him!

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#588961 - 08/03/11 12:27 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.]
Alexander Ness Online   shocked
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Registered: 09/17/03
Posts: 3843
Loc: Minnesota
well, I wonder how a person's story telling could be bad but find a niche in animation, isn't that an artistic non sequitor?


Edited by Alexander Ness (08/03/11 12:29 PM)
Edit Reason: grammar

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#588966 - 08/03/11 01:11 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Alexander Ness]
Paul W. Sondersted, Jr. Offline
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Registered: 07/22/01
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Didn't say it was bad, just not up to par...at least in the comic book medium.

As far as Mr. Purves' niche in the animation field. I'm implying that that's where he apparently chooses to be. He found his niche. grin

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#588967 - 08/03/11 01:15 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.]
Alexander Ness Online   shocked
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Registered: 09/17/03
Posts: 3843
Loc: Minnesota
Hmmmm... You should eat more veggables!

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#589016 - 08/03/11 10:31 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Alexander Ness]
Joe Lee Offline
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Anyone read any of David's books? Not the Trek ones, or Hulk book. I saw a few of his books on the paperback shelf at Half Price the other day, one was titled "Sir Apropos Of Nothing," if I recall correctly.

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#589017 - 08/03/11 10:45 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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That was adapted into comics recently, illustrated by Robin Riggs.
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#589018 - 08/03/11 10:51 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
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Any good?

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#589110 - 08/05/11 05:27 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
shjonescrk Offline
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Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 1351
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I've read most of David's Star Trek New Frontier stuff. It was okay to start, nothing special, but definitely got worse, got really quite crappy to be honest, as it went along.

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#589127 - 08/05/11 09:10 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: shjonescrk]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
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Yeah I read some of his New Frontier stuff. One book ended with "The Great Bird of the Galaxy," actually manifesting itself. I was wondering if his works that weren't based on licensed properties were better.

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#589130 - 08/05/11 09:43 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Alexander Ness]
Budman Offline
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Registered: 12/13/01
Posts: 1867
Loc: Penfield, Ny USA
No offense towards anyone but I thought it was Lawson that drove both peter david and erik larsen away.
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#589131 - 08/05/11 10:01 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Budman]
Joe Lee Offline
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Posts: 12277
Nah, Lawson got Peter David and Tony Isabella. Allen got Erik Larsen, around the time he accused him of tracing, among other things.

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#589148 - 08/06/11 04:21 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Budman]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Budman
No offense towards anyone but I thought it was Lawson that drove both peter david and erik larsen away.

No offense? NO OFFENSE?? NO FUCKING OFFENSE?!? Larsen was CLEARLY and CLEANLY *MY* kill!!!
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589311 - 08/10/11 09:59 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
jackdaw Offline
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Registered: 07/26/05
Posts: 514
I've read a lot of Peter David's stuff, and enjoyed practically all of it. Read all of his Hulk run... thought it was pretty good, although enjoyed Supergirl, Fallen Angel and Young Justice more. Artists changed quite a lot on Hulk run... and my own favorite was Liam Sharp, but that's clearly a minority view.

But on the much more important question of which celebrity contributors Lawson drove away.... here's my incredibly vague and hazy recollection.

Here goes... actually... Lawson has nearly always been the model of decorum. But didn't he once send Paul Smith completely crack-a-dog?? And wasn't it over something completely trivial such as putting "Good morning" in the wrong typeset or font??

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#589317 - 08/10/11 10:52 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: jackdaw]
Lawson Offline
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Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Originally Posted By: jackdaw
Here goes... actually... Lawson has nearly always been the model of decorum. But didn't he once send Paul Smith completely crack-a-dog?? And wasn't it over something completely trivial such as putting "Good morning" in the wrong typeset or font??


Yes, Paul Smith is on my list. Who would think I'd have chased away more pros than Allen? There's a distinction!

With Paul, whose art I like, a bunch of us were praising Jack Kirby's artwork in a thread. Paul hadn't been around in a while. Then I made some sort of joke -- something about, "Yes, Jack could draw, but what did he ever create?" or something else ridiculous like that. You couldn't take the joke seriously if you had been following the thread. But Paul parachuted into the thread, saw my comment and went apeshit. How dare I disrespect Jack Kirby?!! Fuck you you fucking fucker!!! Etc., etc. Then Smith stormed out in a huff, never to be seen here again.

EDITED TO ADD: I just checked, and the joke I made that set Smith off was that Jack Kirby was a gifted comics artist and creator, but in balance, everyone knows he was a communist spy. (I didn't say it was a good joke. A bunch of us were just riffing back and forth). Ludicrous as my statement was, Smith took it seriously. Very very seriously. And very very badly.

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#589394 - 08/13/11 09:21 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Lawson]
ChrisW Offline
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That'll teach him to spend time around here when he could be doing his job, or looking for a job to do. This is Lawson's turf (and Allen's).
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#589396 - 08/13/11 11:58 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: jackdaw]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: jackdaw
Here goes... actually... Lawson has nearly always been the model of decorum. But didn't he once send Paul Smith completely crack-a-dog?? And wasn't it over something completely trivial such as putting "Good morning" in the wrong typeset or font??

Lawson did go crack-a-doodle once. He was arguing with Tony Isabella and was proven right, but then Lawson went so super nuts rubbing it in, seriously more than a wee bit over-kill, Tony left and has rarely been seen around since.

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#589399 - 08/13/11 01:23 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
jackdaw Offline
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Registered: 07/26/05
Posts: 514
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
[quote=jackdaw]Here goes... actually... Lawson has nearly always
Lawson did go crack-a-doodle once. He was arguing with Tony Isabella and was proven right, but then Lawson went so super nuts rubbing it in, seriously more than a wee bit over-kill, that Tony left and has rarely been seen around since.


Again I rely on my completely vague memories to conjure up phantoms that might or might not exist:

Hadn't Tony's patience (around about that time) been severely tested by some moaning about his innocent (because it was all comics related) practice of putting a link here to his own blog? I reckon that might have been a team kill, rather than a Lawson solo.

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#589400 - 08/13/11 02:32 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: jackdaw]
Mr. Socko Offline
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Registered: 11/22/04
Posts: 500
If I were anybody, I sure as hell wouldn't post here.

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#589409 - 08/13/11 06:40 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: jackdaw]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: jackdaw
Again I rely on my completely vague memories to conjure up phantoms that might or might not exist:

Hadn't Tony's patience (around about that time) been severely tested by some moaning about his innocent (because it was all comics related) practice of putting a link here to his own blog? I reckon that might have been a team kill, rather than a Lawson solo.
I think you're conflating two different things.

There were a few people complaining about Tony's updates, claiming they were spam. Some, myself included, disagreed.

Either way it lead to Tony attempting to hang out a bit more than just posting his updates.

At some point later Lawson and forgive me but I don't recall the context or the argument. But Lawson proved Tony to have been wrong on some point. The hi-jinks then ensued. Lawson even admitted he might have over did the victory celebration, others argued that Tony may have brought it on himself by his own actions in the past.

Either way one less pro who bothers to hang out here.

I used to think it was a shame more pros don't hang out. Whether it be egos too fragile to withstand disagreement or a very real concern of wasting time and effort arguing with some idiot who is just baiting you, I think i now understand completely why they don't hang out here after having been caught up in any number of stupid fights myself. So, I think it's probably for the best.



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#589410 - 08/13/11 07:02 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Lawson]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: Lawson
Who would think I'd have chased away more pros than Allen? There's a distinction!

I seem to inspire an "everybody loves me more than you so I'll show you" response.

I claim Kerry Gammill and Rick Parker, btw.
_________________________
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If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589413 - 08/13/11 07:19 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: jackdaw]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: jackdaw
Artists changed quite a lot on Hulk run... and my own favorite was Liam Sharp, but that's clearly a minority view.

No, no... now that you mention it, he was probably also my favorite. But he only lasted seven or eight issues, following behind Gary Frank's two-year run and Dale Keown's three-year run; then followed by Angel Medina for a year.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589420 - 08/13/11 10:47 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Budman Offline
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I liked Keown's run. It was very reminiscant of Byrnes work. There was another artist that did Freak Force from Image who also was a near knock off of Byrne. Victor Bridges or something like that. And what kept intriguing me about this was that one issue they even had karl kesel as the inker.
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#589430 - 08/14/11 11:38 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
jackdaw Offline
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Registered: 07/26/05
Posts: 514
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
I think you're conflating two different things.

There were a few people complaining about Tony's updates, claiming they were spam. Some, myself included, disagreed.


Yes. Now you've given my memory a nudge, I know you're right.

I was interested in rest of your post ( about pros and cons of professionals hanging out on these boards). I tend... alas.. to always look at things selfishly. And because I nearly always enjoy the contributions the pros make, I wish more still regularly contributed. But... blimey... as you say, its easy to see why any busy guy (or gal) would have to have different priorities.

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#589460 - 08/14/11 11:47 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: jackdaw]
Joe Lee Offline
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Yeah, it'd be cool having some pros here. But it always seems to end the same way.

Some pro guy is either too thin-skinned to take any abuse, good natured or not, or even of he is able to dish-it-out, give as good as he gets, eventually he gets bored or annoyed with most of the conversations involving getting baited by some jerk with an agenda. So I don't think it's really possible, there are easier places to hang out now, like Twitter.

Erik Larsen seemed like a guy who could give as good as he got, but the seemingly endless accusations of tracing from one guy were probably enough to annoy or bore the crap out of him eventually. Seriously, like the guy or not, can you blame him or anyone else, for that matter for leaving. That had to have gotten pretty tedious.

I used to think of this place like a neighborhood bar, everybody is free to come in and say what they want. But the bartender or someone would keep the celeb guarded from the crazies. But the powers-that-be have created one of the few places online where people can feel free to speak their minds without fear of breaking some stupid rule or regulation. Many places are sycophants only. Or heavily moderated. Very few people have ever been kicked out of here that I can recall. And the ones who have were really pushing it.

This place is just a tough room. Everyone is free to say their piece, and no one gets special treatment. Fight if you gotta, but it's a tough room, and you're on your own. Most people don't like tough rooms. Some whine about it, and complain about how the old days were better, but then they don't do anything but whine. So screw em'



Edited by Joe Lee (08/15/11 12:00 AM)

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#589464 - 08/15/11 12:39 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
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Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
Erik Larsen seemed like a guy who could give as good as he got, but the seemingly endless accusations of tracing from one guy were probably enough to annoy or bore the crap out of him eventually.

He could have dropped it at any point and I would have let it go. But his desire to prove me wrong overrode all else (mostly just admitting the truth). Byrne's influence is all over the excretions he calls his work. If Larsen would have just allowed me my opinion of Joe Sinnott's terrible inking, I might not have had to go there.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589465 - 08/15/11 12:48 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Alexander Ness Online   shocked
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Registered: 09/17/03
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And Peter David could use a last name too.

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#589466 - 08/15/11 01:12 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Alexander Ness]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Peter Allen David could have given Gerhard one of his three first names.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589467 - 08/15/11 01:36 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Alexander Ness Online   shocked
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Registered: 09/17/03
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Loc: Minnesota
He should have.

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#589473 - 08/15/11 10:22 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
Lawson Offline
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Registered: 11/11/02
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Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
At some point later Lawson and forgive me but I don't recall the context or the argument. But Lawson proved Tony to have been wrong on some point. The hi-jinks then ensued. Lawson even admitted he might have over did the victory celebration, others argued that Tony may have brought it on himself by his own actions in the past.


Yeah, in the end, Tony Isabella was my fault.

Tony had been ribbed a lot by other people about his daily blog promotions, because it usually was the only time he contributed to threads around here. He sort of Spammed. So I think he already was a little sensitive about criticism.

Then I came back from a comics convention and reported on a great anecdote related by Marv Wolfman and Len Wein about their early days in the comic book industry. They were accused -- wrongly -- of theft and were blacklisted for a short period.

Tony inexplicably jumped into that thread to say I was clearly making this up, that he doubted Len and Marv ever related any such tale. I've no idea why Tony took such a personal interest in this story about two other writers.

And I dunno why -- maybe I was having a bad day -- but that accusation sat wrong with me. So I found an online interview Len Wein had given on the same subject and posted it in the thread. Ta-da! See, I didn't make it up!

But Tony said something equally dismissive, something rude, unable to admit that he simply was wrong. And ... to rub his face in it ... I started a new thread called something like TONY ISABELLA GETS PROVEN TOTALLY WRONG!

That was the last we ever saw of Tony Isabella.

I shouldn't have done it. I should have stopped once I had established that Wein said what I said he said. Tony's attitude just stuck in my craw. Tony -- who got into a lot of Internet arguments -- could dish it out but not take it. I should have been the bigger man there.

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#589474 - 08/15/11 10:35 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Lawson]
Lawson Offline
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On the subject of whether it would be better if comics pros still posted here -- sure it would be nice. But it's a free world and they don't, so eh, what are you gonna do? Impose a dress code? Hang out here if you want, don't if you don't.

Self-flagellation aside, I don't think it's always our fetid breath that drives people away. There simply are more options now. When Rick and Steve started Comicon, message boards were in their infancy. There weren't many places online that people interested in comic books could gather to talk. Comicon was one of the few.

Today, many comics publishers and comics pros maintain their own message boards. You wanna interact with Brian Bendis now, he's probably at the Bendis message board. You wanna interact with a DC Comics staffer now, he's probably at the DC Comics message board.

There only are so many hours in the day. Bendis probably won't run his own Web site and hang out at Comicon. Don't take it personally. Comicon, like some other third-party sites, is mostly where regular fans (the filthy rabble) hang out.

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#589476 - 08/15/11 10:57 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
MightyQuin Online   content
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Registered: 01/26/02
Posts: 1068
Loc: Tallahassee,FL
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Peter Allen David could have given Gerhard one of his three first names.


But, who will trade Tony Isabella for a girl's first name?!

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#589477 - 08/15/11 11:04 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
Erik Larsen seemed like a guy who could give as good as he got, but the seemingly endless accusations of tracing from one guy were probably enough to annoy or bore the crap out of him eventually.

He could have dropped it at any point and I would have let it go. But his desire to prove me wrong overrode all else (mostly just admitting the truth). Byrne's influence is all over the excretions he calls his work. If Larsen would have just allowed me my opinion of Joe Sinnott's terrible inking, I might not have had to go there.
I gotta ask. How did he not allow you your opinion? You had your opinion, he had his. How did this not allow you yours?

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#589478 - 08/15/11 11:15 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Lawson]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Lawson
...That was the last we ever saw of Tony Isabella.

I shouldn't have done it. I should have stopped once I had established that Wein said what I said he said. Tony's attitude just stuck in my craw. Tony -- who got into a lot of Internet arguments -- could dish it out but not take it. I should have been the bigger man there.
I don't know. Why should you have to treat someone different than anyone else?

I like Tony, and was pissed at the time when you went after the guy, but if you had that same dispute with me or anyone else would you have done anything any different? If it had been anyone else it would have been hilarious. And I'd like to think most of us around here would have taken it for the joke it was, and took our lumps. Maybe not I don't know...

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#589479 - 08/15/11 11:23 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
Lawson Offline
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Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
I don't know. Why should you have to treat someone different than anyone else?


I probably shouldn't be that rough on anyone here, regardless of whether he's a pro. Arguing is fine. Standing up for yourself is fine. But I went out of my way to rub Tony's face in it. I shouldn't have done that to anyone.

Some years ago, in a debate with Paul Sondersted about Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster -- he defended something dumb Byrne said and argued that S&S had been foolish with their finances -- I dug up Paul's personal bankruptcy filing. I figured it was relevant. Oy, what the hell was I thinking? Talk about going over the top.

Last week, noticing how cavalierly ChrisW was insulting other people in a thread, I poked the little button on his forehead that predictably made the cuckoo bird spring out. I shouldn't have done it.

I'm OK with my behavior here maybe 90 percent of the time. The remaining 10 percent makes me cringe.

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#589480 - 08/15/11 11:39 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
How did he not allow you your opinion?

Go back and read the thread, starting here. Notice that you also didn't know why the production line method of pencil-ink was even invented. And Larsen accused ME of not having a clue.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589481 - 08/15/11 11:42 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Lawson]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Lawson
I probably shouldn't be that rough on anyone here, regardless of whether he's a pro. Arguing is fine. Standing up for yourself is fine. But I went out of my way to rub Tony's face in it. I shouldn't have done that to anyone...
Fair enough. But you never know when one little offhand comment will bring you someone's week long wrath. It's when I get caught up in those stupid fights that I question myself for posting in forums like these, so I guess I can't blame any pros for not posting here.

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#589482 - 08/15/11 11:46 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
How did he not allow you your opinion?

Go back and read the thread, starting here. Notice that you also didn't know why the production line method of pencil-ink was even invented. And Larsen accused ME of not having a clue.
I don't want to re-argue the whole thing. As I'm guessing neither did he, endlessly.

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#589483 - 08/15/11 11:50 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
Lawson Offline
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Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
It's when I get caught up in those stupid fights that I question myself for posting in forums like these, so I guess I can't blame any pros for not posting here.


Years ago I kept a yellow stickie note on my car's dashboard that said "F.I.D.O." It was short for "Forget It, Drive On." If someone cut me off in traffic -- if someone swiped a parking space I was headed for -- forget it, drive on. Don't lose your temper. Especially don't lose your temper when you're driving two tons of metal and glass.

I need to put a F.I.D.O. stickie note on my computer.

Forget It, Drive On.

I'm like you, I sometimes find myself in furious typing matches over the silliest shit -- and I think, "Why am I losing my cool over this?!"

I still post here -- some days more than others -- because I still enjoy the company of you, Alex, Budman, Charles and the other long-timers. Yes, even Allen! I just have to remind myself that it's supposed to be a source of fun, not stress. When I start flipping out, it's time for a short break.

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#589487 - 08/15/11 12:20 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Lawson]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
I did that in the Black Terror thread. I was gone for about three weeks. When I got back, there had only been about twenty posts on the entire board while I was away. Even Cory didn't spam the Gutters. It was quite odd.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589488 - 08/15/11 12:24 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
I don't want to re-argue the whole thing. As I'm guessing neither did he, endlessly.

There's no arguing that Larsen was heavily influenced by Byrne. That is a fact. He even wrote an article on Newsarama saying as much, although I hadn't read it at the time.

There's also no arguing that Colletta was a better artist than Sinnott. Neither one was consistently good, but Colletta was occasionally okay. Sinnott was just a tracer with a very flat line.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589489 - 08/15/11 12:25 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Lawson Offline
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Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Yeah, there's no rhyme or rhythm to posting here.

Sometimes I'm gone a few days and there are 100 new posts scattered among the three areas I check (News, Comics and Politics). Other times, there's almost nothing new and you can hear crickets chirping.

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#589493 - 08/15/11 12:58 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Lawson]
Alexander Ness Online   shocked
Member

Registered: 09/17/03
Posts: 3843
Loc: Minnesota
Lawson needs one of Peter Allen David's first names too.

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#589495 - 08/15/11 01:17 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
I don't want to re-argue the whole thing. As I'm guessing neither did he, endlessly.

There's no arguing that Larsen was heavily influenced by Byrne. That is a fact. He even wrote an article on Newsarama saying as much, although I hadn't read it at the time.

There's also no arguing that Colletta was a better artist than Sinnott. Neither one was consistently good, but Colletta was occasionally okay. Sinnott was just a tracer with a very flat line.
You're kinda illustrating my point for me.

If Larsen would try and hang out here, you would revisit the same argument, again and again, because he disagreed with you. And it would be the same with any other pro eventually too. Whether it be you, me, Lawson whoever, eventually we'd bore them to pieces or piss the guy off enough to leave...

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#589499 - 08/15/11 02:08 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
All he had to do was let it pass. But he not only jumped into it, he instantly started lying, saying that Byrne wasn't even one of his principle influences. When he'd already written a lengthy article saying that he was. This is the kind of personality you are siding with.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589501 - 08/15/11 02:12 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Alexander Ness Online   shocked
Member

Registered: 09/17/03
Posts: 3843
Loc: Minnesota
I like Erik Larsen, I like his work. I liked his reign during his days as Publisher at Image. But Allen pegged him as being highly influenced by Byrne, and Erik Larsen denied it. Vehemently. Yet had himself written that Byrne was his primal influence.

I blame Allen for it all.

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#589504 - 08/15/11 02:20 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Alexander Ness]
Lawson Offline
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Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
I like Erik Larsen, admire what he's done with his career and have enjoyed a few personal conversations with him.

But he's absolutely one of those guys -- like some of us -- who must be right, who must win the argument, who must get the last word. Larsen probably was doomed to burn out here unless he was prepared to spend the rest of his life here.

Like, er, us.

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#589505 - 08/15/11 02:26 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Alexander Ness]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
I may not have much artistic ability, but I do have a good eye.

I recently picked out a paint color which needed to match a specific shade of brown. I would have waited until I had taken a bunch of swatches home to find a match, but the store was running a special that ended on last Sunday. The deal was too good to pass up, so I figured if it was close it wouldn't matter much. Turns out, perfect match on the first try.

Don't question my ability to see details.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589507 - 08/15/11 02:34 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Lawson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
So Allen the handyman buys several cans of brown paint and he asks a neighbor if the guy needs anything painted brown.

The neighbor says, "Now that you mention it, yes, my porch could use a fresh coat of paint."

He and Allen arrive at a fair price. Allen goes to work.

A couple hours later, a paint-spattered Allen knocks on the guy's door.

"I'm finished," Allen says. "Oh, and by the way, that's not a Porche you've got, that's a Mercedes."

grin

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#589508 - 08/15/11 02:37 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Alexander Ness Online   shocked
Member

Registered: 09/17/03
Posts: 3843
Loc: Minnesota
Actually Allen, I was saying you were guilty for being exactly right. I wasn't questioning anything.

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#589509 - 08/15/11 02:42 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Lawson]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
That's a funny joke. I also liked it the first time I heard it twenty years ago. The paint was for my personal use, but I did just build a porch for a guy this week, so good call.


But seriously. I once did a full page of 1-inch squares to test various brands of ink, to see the variations in shades of black.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589510 - 08/15/11 03:14 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
All he had to do was let it pass. But he not only jumped into it, he instantly started lying, saying that Byrne wasn't even one of his principle influences. When he'd already written a lengthy article saying that he was. This is the kind of personality you are siding with.
I'm not siding with anyone.

The point I was making had nothing to do with the merits of the argument. Just that it was another example of what will happen to any pro who posts here. Not even saying it was unfair, just saying that any pro that comes here will likely eventually find reason to leave, whether they be thin-skinned or just annoyed. Fair point or no, the end result would still be the same.

Why are you re-arguing the argument?


Edited by Joe Lee (08/15/11 03:21 PM)

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#589513 - 08/15/11 03:29 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
That's a funny joke.
I was having a hard time believing you lived next door to a guy who had a Mercedes. grin

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#589521 - 08/15/11 06:30 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
just saying that any pro that comes here will likely eventually find reason to leave

Because someone won't accept and challenges their blatant lies? If Larsen set any kind of standard, there's no reason to believe anything a "pro" might have to say. Where's the value in that? Pat Broderick had me temporarily banned for a trifling offense, because his worth as a "pro" is considered more valuable than mine as a non-pro. If these guys want to interact fairly, I've no problem. But clearly there's an inequity in play here.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589522 - 08/15/11 06:33 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
I was having a hard time believing you lived next door to a guy who had a Mercedes. grin

A few Lincolns and Cadillacs, but yeah, no Mercedeses(es). All of my vehicles are Ford or Mercury.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589527 - 08/15/11 07:59 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Lawson]
Paul W. Sondersted, Jr. Offline
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Registered: 07/22/01
Posts: 4593
Loc: Sparks, Nevada, United States
Originally Posted By: Lawson
Some years ago, in a debate with Paul Sondersted about Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster -- he defended something dumb Byrne said and argued that S&S had been foolish with their finances --


Hmmmm. I don't recall saying such a thing in regards to Siegel and/or Shuster. Paraphrasing CAN be a good thing, but NOT in this case.

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#589528 - 08/15/11 08:20 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.]
Alexander Ness Online   shocked
Member

Registered: 09/17/03
Posts: 3843
Loc: Minnesota
You'll have to forgive Lawson, he is missing a first name...

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#589529 - 08/15/11 08:33 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Alexander Ness]
Paul W. Sondersted, Jr. Offline
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Registered: 07/22/01
Posts: 4593
Loc: Sparks, Nevada, United States
I thought it was Mister?

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#589530 - 08/15/11 09:17 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Because someone won't accept and challenges their blatant lies?
Who is saying you shouldn't challenge anyone? I'm not arguing we accommodate anyone...

The greatest virtue of these boards here... very little to no interference. And because of that freedom, any pro that comes here will likely eventually find reason to leave, whether they be thin-skinned or just annoyed. Whether treated fairly or not, the end result would still be the same.

My theory here is, and try and follow me here, that BECAUSE of the great freedom we enjoy here, having of any pros hang out here is a virtual impossibility. If you hadn't annoyed the guy, someone else would have eventually. Me or Lawson or Paul, or whoever. It was inevitable given that we all are able to speak freely here.

And I don't blame them, there are probably better options available to them these days, from their perspective. A private message board full of sychophants, or a corporate board full of moderators or both. Or better yet Twitter where you can block/follow/unfollow people at will.



Edited by Joe Lee (08/15/11 09:31 PM)

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#589557 - 08/16/11 08:23 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
HouseOfMisterE Offline
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Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 268
Loc: Huntsville, AL
There's a new interview with Peter David at Ain't It Cool News:

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/50824

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#589567 - 08/16/11 01:16 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Alexander Ness]
steel: A Long Departed Hero Offline
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Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 4322
Loc: The MBA (Mysterious Blue Area)...
Back from thE dead. What'd I miss?


http://thebarbariancomic.blogspot.com/
_________________________
The Man of Mettle

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#589575 - 08/17/11 01:16 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: steel: A Long Departed Hero]
ChrisW Offline
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Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
Cool interview, HoME laugh

Originally Posted By: This never grows old
It's apparent that Larsen has been copying other people's work as recently as The Dark Knight Strikes Again. If we had a hidden camera at his drawing board, I'd wager we'd see he that still copies other people's work to this very day.
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#589590 - 08/17/11 11:57 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: ChrisW]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
I'm still correct. Your point?
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589610 - 08/17/11 08:00 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
ChrisW Offline
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Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
It’s taken this long to get back to the subject of Colleen Doran, published by Image, who made Colleen Doran’s type of work unwelcome in the comics bazaar. You never demonstrated how you were correct or did anything other than become abusive when challenged. What wants to have any sort of conversation with someone who never knows any other form of communication?

Originally Posted By: Go a little further in the thread, Colleen Doran (who used to post here and was awesome about it too) is quoted and you said
Her positive attitude is amazing, considering the Image crew are largely responsible for turning the market into a bazaar where her brand of wares are mostly unwelcome.


It was pointed out that "A Distant Soil" was published by Image and she was quite happy with the arrangement. The publisher of Image pointed this out to you, even though he had other work to do, including pages on his drawing board that you made false witness to.

Originally Posted By: the snarky retort is heard
Well that must be Image's fault somehow too. Right Allen?

Originally Posted By: then Allen goes right to the triple-dog dare
You tell me how you want this discussion to play out. Civil or no?


Like he has a fucking clue about civility. At no point in this discussion or any other has he given an inch to anyone else's superior knowledge or judgement about anything. The fact that Colleen Doran was happy with her deal with Image didn't stop him from trying to... what? Extort money from Larsen/Image to give her a page rate?

Outlandish accusation follows outlandish accusation without you ever explaining WTF. Image's basic terms are publicly known, and your screeching comes across as demanding some sort of deal on behalf of who? A creator Image chooses to do business with and is happy, or a rage-filled cyberstalker who thinks the chief executive of a company should give up specific numbers publicly.

Coming from someone who never provides the slightest evidence for his most ludicrous accusations, that's pretty bizarre.

"Dark Knight Strikes Again" is quite specific. Whatever issues of "Savage Dragon" you were citing as a specific DKSA steal, they were from DSKA, not "300" or "Hell and Back". Which issues were those anyway?

You never actually backed up anything with factual evidence or gave an inch to anyone who challenged your point of view on anything. You just became abusive instead. Like it was your business what Erik Larsen/Image/Colleen Doran should be doing. Who do you think you are, someone who's created and published a fuckload of pages? Or just willfully ignorant about everything.

Did Larsen rip apart your pages at some convention or something? I hate to say this to another comic book fan, but you've got issues.
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"I think ChrisW is the funniest man in entertainment still alive..."
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#589614 - 08/17/11 10:10 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: ChrisW]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: ChrisW
It was pointed out that "A Distant Soil" was published by Image and she was quite happy with the arrangement.

Hey, YOU were the one slagging her in the "Self-Publishing Victories" thread about not finishing ADS. If she was so happy with the arrangement, I'm sure she would have put out another issue in... how many years has it been now?


Originally Posted By: ChrisW
I hate to say this to another comic book fan, but you've got issues.

Hahaha! Says the guy who's arguing a thread from... how many years ago?
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589615 - 08/17/11 10:15 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: ChrisW]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Oh, and...

Originally Posted By: ChrisW
Did Larsen rip apart your pages at some convention or something?

First of all, I already told you I don't attend your homo wankfests. And second, why the fuck would I ask Larsen's opinion of my artwork? He doesn't even know how to draw without copying others!
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589625 - 08/18/11 02:21 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
ChrisW Offline
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Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
Quote:
Hahaha! Says the guy who's arguing a thread from... how many years ago?


Says the guy who dug up the link to that very thread for all of us on this very page to see.
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If This Be... PayPal!!!

"I think ChrisW is the funniest man in entertainment still alive..."
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#589626 - 08/18/11 02:35 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: ChrisW]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Joe asked a question about it. I didn't then go back and quote it. I hate to say this to another comic book fan, but... you've got issues. And I don't mean back issues.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589632 - 08/18/11 10:17 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: ChrisW]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: ChrisW
Says the guy who dug up the link to that very thread for all of us on this very page to see.
I'm the one who brought it up.

I didn't intend for the argument itself to be revived and re-argued. I just used the argument itself as an example of someone here beating a dead horse until a pro got frustrated enough to leave. I used that one as an example because Larsen seemed to give as good as he got for a while. But like anyone, he got bored or annoyed with the seemingly unending confrontations over the same thing.

Allen now deciding to beat the dead horse again, just because it was mentioned, well yeah that was kinda ironic.

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#589636 - 08/18/11 11:31 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
MightyQuin Online   content
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Registered: 01/26/02
Posts: 1068
Loc: Tallahassee,FL
Joe's right that big time comics pros won't post here regularly for the reasons he mentioned. Maybe we'll grow our own eventually. Several posters here are of a semi-pro status. Joe himself is a professional commercial artist who dabbles in comics as well, the rest, you know who you are! The point is, having been vaccinated with Comicon earlier, these posters are now immune to infection.

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#589641 - 08/18/11 11:44 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
Allen now deciding to beat the dead horse again, just because it was mentioned, well yeah that was kinda ironic.

My point the last time was that Larsen isn't qualified as a judge of aesthetics because he is a stylistic thief, and then he even wanted to lie about something as obvious as that (and had already confessed at great length to elsewhere). My point this time is that you're (still) empathizing with a thief and a liar. It's like you're playing the same role as whoever that was who stood up for your Allred-basher.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589642 - 08/18/11 11:58 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
AGAIN, how am I empathizing? My point had nothing to do with the merits of the argument itself.

Just that your unwillingness to drop it eventually wore the guy down. Not saying your argument was sound or not. Just pointed out that he has no reason to come her and chat, if he would be constantly confronted with your argument. He in fact has every reason to go somewhere else, anywhere else where he can talk about other topics. Just as many other pros have left for other forums.

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#589643 - 08/18/11 12:00 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: MightyQuin]
Lawson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Originally Posted By: MightyQuin
The point is, having been vaccinated with Comicon earlier, these posters are now immune to infection.


No, the moment that Joe Lee becomes a successful comics pro, I'm going to rip his head off and shit down his neck.

Sorry, buddy, it's Comicon. Them's the rules.

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#589644 - 08/18/11 12:01 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: MightyQuin]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: MightyQuin
Joe himself is a professional commercial artist who dabbles in comics as well...
Dabbles is probably too strong a word.

You want to talk successful writer who still comes around, Ness is your man!

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#589645 - 08/18/11 12:04 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Lawson]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Lawson
No, the moment that Joe Lee becomes a successful comics pro, I'm going to rip his head off and shit down his neck.

Sorry, buddy, it's Comicon. Them's the rules.
Are you kidding. The moment I was even remotely successful, semi-semi part-time pro, I'd be outta here. I'd go hide with other guys that got chased out like the Green Lama dude at the Linked-in "Comic Book Business for Creators and Creations" forums.


Edited by Joe Lee (08/18/11 12:08 PM)

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#589646 - 08/18/11 12:10 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
Lawson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Who are you kidding? You'd come back once every 30 days or so to post a new promotional Spam link like certain others!

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#589647 - 08/18/11 12:11 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Lawson]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

I'll be like Nick Trembles, and Steel.

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#589649 - 08/18/11 12:13 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
Alexander Ness Online   shocked
Member

Registered: 09/17/03
Posts: 3843
Loc: Minnesota
Success is measured so differently by people. My wife and in laws think I do nothing. My mom wonders, even with her alzheimer's if I'll ever make money. The people in the poetry community think I must have sold my soul to the devil to be published so many times.

Thanks Joe for the kind words.

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#589652 - 08/18/11 12:19 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Alexander Ness]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Alex, you are doing what you love. You are a success.


Edited by Joe Lee (08/18/11 12:20 PM)

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#589653 - 08/18/11 12:21 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Alexander Ness]
Lawson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
If you're being published, Alex, then you're succeeding. Money can't be the benchmark for you. I assume most poets must have other jobs.

I just finished a book of poetry called Ballistics by a fellow, Billy Collins, who used to be the poet laureate of the United States. It was excellent. But it also was the first book of poetry I'd read in more than 10 years. And I borrowed a copy from the public library.

It's possible that most Americans consume a lot more poetry than I do, but I doubt it.

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#589656 - 08/18/11 12:24 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
MightyQuin Online   content
Member

Registered: 01/26/02
Posts: 1068
Loc: Tallahassee,FL
Alex was definitely one I had in mind, but I think he has one of those ever-filling souls like Thor's mead cup, he can sell it all he wants. Now if Joe can just regrow his head.

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#589657 - 08/18/11 12:25 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
AGAIN, how am I empathizing?

And then you go off on a paragraph about how he likely felt.


Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
My point had nothing to do with the merits of the argument itself.

Neither does mine. I'm pointing out that he is a thief and a liar, and yet you care about how he feels.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589659 - 08/18/11 12:27 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
chased out like the Green Lama dude at the Linked-in "Comic Book Business for Creators and Creations" forums.

He got chased off another forum?
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589660 - 08/18/11 12:30 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Lawson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
he is a thief and a liar


Erik Larsen? Could that be a little strong language to use for a guy who was influenced by another artist?

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#589661 - 08/18/11 12:32 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
AGAIN, how am I empathizing?

And then you go off on a paragraph about how he likely felt.


Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
My point had nothing to do with the merits of the argument itself.

Neither does mine. I'm pointing out that he is a thief and a liar, and yet you care about how he feels.


Feelings had nothing to do with the merits of your argument. Not even saying you shouldn't have made it. This place is all about free speech, with little or no interference, and it should be, as long as the powers that be will allow us that freedom.

It doesn't mean that I can't say that it's also likely to keep away the pros, not saying its good or bad just part of the package.

Does anyone else get the distinction? Is there a better way to explain it, I've tried half a dozen time, am I not doing it that well or is he being thick?

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#589662 - 08/18/11 12:34 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
Lawson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Joe's saying we're all free to say what we want. But if we drag an argument on forever just because we insist on having the last word, it's going to disgust people who otherwise are willing to accept the fact that we're assholes.

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#589663 - 08/18/11 12:36 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Lawson]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: Lawson
You'd come back once every 30 days or so to post a new promotional Spam link like certain others!

Every thirty days would be fine. It's the daily crap that pushed Tony over the line. Rick Trembles actually does something interesting and sometimes skips. That DeeMan guy and Tony DeGerolamo seem to be weekly. The problem with Steel is that he misdirects his promotion — saying a thread is about one thing, then slipping in the ad — or trying to direct existing threads to his shitty comic.

I once had a run-in with the DeeMan, though. Pissed him off so bad, he named the bad guy after me in the comic he was scripting.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589664 - 08/18/11 12:38 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Lawson]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: Lawson
Could that be a little strong language to use for a guy who was influenced by another artist?

I wouldn't have called him a thief until he decided to be a liar about it.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589665 - 08/18/11 12:40 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Lawson]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Lawson
Joe's saying we're all free to say what we want. But if we drag an argument on forever just because we insist on having the last word, it's going to disgust people who otherwise are willing to accept the fact that we're assholes.
Exactly!

Allen, sometimes sees people disagreeing with him, as someone not allowing him (allen) to have an opinion.

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#589666 - 08/18/11 12:41 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
This place is all about free speech

"Free Speech" does not equal "Lying."


Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
Does anyone else get the distinction? Is there a better way to explain it, I've tried half a dozen time, am I not doing it that well or is he being thick?

These are my questions to you, also.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589668 - 08/18/11 12:45 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
I wouldn't have called him a thief until he decided to be a liar about it.
But whether you were right or wrong on the facts, can you see where that after a time, it might be an annoying conversation to the other guy, so he left?

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#589671 - 08/18/11 12:49 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: MightyQuin]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: MightyQuin
Now if Joe can just regrow his head.
eek

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#589672 - 08/18/11 12:50 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
Allen, sometimes sees people disagreeing with him, as someone not allowing him (allen) to have an opinion.

No. I only pointed out facts, which Larsen had already confessed to, but then chose to deny.

I might go a couple of rounds on opinion — Rex Lindsey vs Dan Parent, for example — but facts are neverending.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589673 - 08/18/11 12:51 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
Lawson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
Allen, sometimes sees people disagreeing with him, as someone not allowing him (allen) to have an opinion.


That's a common belief these days.

I often hear right-wing political pundits talking on radio and/or TV shows as part of their nationwide tours to promote their new best-selling books. Inevitably, the theme is "Why My Free Speech Is Being Violated."

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#589674 - 08/18/11 12:52 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
can you see where that after a time, it might be an annoying conversation to the other guy, so he left?

Why would I care if a proven liar hung around?
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589675 - 08/18/11 12:54 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Not asking you to care.

I'm pointing out it's not anyone's fault the guy left.

The system here is inherently inhospitable to pros, given the pro-friendly options available now.


Edited by Joe Lee (08/18/11 12:58 PM)

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#589678 - 08/18/11 01:04 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
— but facts are neverending.
As is your argument with anyone who disagrees with you.

But not everything you say is a fact, is in fact, a fact. You often claim your opinion of what someone was thinking was a fact. And when they disagree, you won't agree to disagree, you keep trying to prove to them (or the other readers) you know better what they were thinking than they do.

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#589679 - 08/18/11 01:05 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
it's not anyone's fault the guy left.

Yes, it is. His own, for deciding to be a liar.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589680 - 08/18/11 01:08 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
You often claim your opinion of what someone was thinking was a fact.

Often? Not saying you're wrong, but you should have no problem producing examples, if I do this so often.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589681 - 08/18/11 01:11 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
So Erik Larsen walks into a bar.

Allen perks up on his stool and starts pointing at Larsen, "Liar, thief, thou hast trace-ed the works of other artists. Liar, thief, tracing the works of others, lusting in thy heart for the works not of thy own creation..."

Erik Larsen leaves the bar.

Allen scratches his head, "The guy must not enjoy good conversation."

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#589683 - 08/18/11 01:13 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
Alexander Ness Online   shocked
Member

Registered: 09/17/03
Posts: 3843
Loc: Minnesota
When did Allen begin speaking like God?

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#589685 - 08/18/11 01:14 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Alexander Ness]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
You tell it your way, I'll tell it my way.

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#589688 - 08/18/11 01:23 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
So, no examples of my claiming my opinion of what someone was thinking was a fact, then?
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589700 - 08/18/11 07:04 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Peter Urkowitz Offline
Member

Registered: 08/28/00
Posts: 3231
Loc: Salem, MA, USA
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
chased out like the Green Lama dude at the Linked-in "Comic Book Business for Creators and Creations" forums.

He got chased off another forum?


No, no, no. Read the whole sentence that Joe wrote: "I'd go hide with other guys that got chased out like the Green Lama dude at the Linked-in "Comic Book Business for Creators and Creations" forums."

Parse out that sentence again:
I'd go hide at the Linked-in "Comic Book Business for Creators and Creations" forums.
With other guys that got chased out [of Comicon].
Like the Green Lama dude.


Okay, now that I've wasted my time doing that, you were probably just joking, right?

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#589702 - 08/18/11 08:33 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Peter Urkowitz]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
My mistake. But Joe's phrasing there was, at best, pretty lousy.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589714 - 08/18/11 10:49 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
ChrisW Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
Quote:
You tell it your way, I'll tell it my way.


I loved it! :))

But can we add a talking kumquat? Because I hear that's the next big thing among kids 8-14, they love kumquats.
_________________________
If This Be... PayPal!!!

"I think ChrisW is the funniest man in entertainment still alive..."
-- the perceptive Tom Spurgeon

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#589716 - 08/18/11 11:04 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
My mistake. But Joe's phrasing there was, at best, pretty lousy.
Must you make a fuss about everything.

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#589718 - 08/18/11 11:38 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
So you followed Ritchey onto another board, is what you're saying.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589721 - 08/18/11 11:45 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Lawson]
Peter Urkowitz Offline
Member

Registered: 08/28/00
Posts: 3231
Loc: Salem, MA, USA
Originally Posted By: Lawson
Joe's saying we're all free to say what we want. But if we drag an argument on forever just because we insist on having the last word, it's going to disgust people who otherwise are willing to accept the fact that we're assholes.


I endorse this statement. smile

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#589722 - 08/18/11 11:51 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Peter Urkowitz]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Had to get the last word, didn't you.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#589737 - 08/19/11 10:11 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
So you followed Ritchey onto another board, is what you're saying.
I ran across him there a few weeks back. He was involved in some interesting discussions. (Ones you would probably enjoy).

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#589738 - 08/19/11 10:12 AM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Had to get the last word, didn't you.
Does anyone really ever get the last word?

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#589745 - 08/19/11 12:40 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Joe Lee]
steel: A Long Departed Hero Offline
Member

Registered: 08/29/01
Posts: 4322
Loc: The MBA (Mysterious Blue Area)...
Hey! I said I'm back from the dead! Don't you think that's a little-- Oh, wait, you guys read comics. Coming back from the dead is like taking a dump for you enlightened ones. Bumped into Nightcrawler in the beyond. Said for you guys to expect him for lunch.

If you liked this posting, follow @BaRbArIaNcOmIc on twitter.
_________________________
The Man of Mettle

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#589795 - 08/20/11 03:52 PM Re: Peter David is a great writer! [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Peter Urkowitz Offline
Member

Registered: 08/28/00
Posts: 3231
Loc: Salem, MA, USA
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Had to get the last word, didn't you.


Haha! smile

(oops, sorry, did it again! I promise to shut up after this! That's one thing nice about the Facebook "Like" button, that you can show agreement with somebody without seeming to drag on the conversation needlessly. We should get that feature here!)

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