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#592997 - 11/08/11 04:18 PM difference between Graphic Novel and TPB
Alexander Ness Online   shocked
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Tpbs are just collections and Graphic novels are original format? Or is Graphic Novel now the accepted term for both?

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#593000 - 11/08/11 04:33 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Alexander Ness]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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You got it right in your first sentence.
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#593007 - 11/08/11 05:17 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Alexander Ness Online   shocked
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K. Thanks.

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#593017 - 11/08/11 09:53 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Alexander Ness]
Peter Urkowitz Offline
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I agree, mostly. But you can find people using the terms interchangably, so don't be surprised. And since they're all made-up terms, there's no "wrong" way to use them, really.

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#593018 - 11/08/11 10:12 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Peter Urkowitz]
Alexander Ness Online   shocked
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The reason I ask is that I am getting older and behind on tech and I almost never hear the term TPB but rather Graphic Novel when describing comic stories. And sometimes they came out in comics first.

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#593020 - 11/09/11 07:35 AM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Alexander Ness]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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I suppose Watchmen is the example. I disagree with calling that a "graphic novel." Yes, it was conceived as a finite story. However, it was also conceived as individual issues of a comic book. Ergo, the whole thing is a collection. To me, the word "novel" implies not only a complete story, but also a standalone product.

The Christian Bible. One book, or many books?
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
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#593021 - 11/09/11 09:01 AM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Jimbo Offline
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I've often thought of it as relating to TV and Movies. A TPB is like a DVD set of a TV series, where as a Graphic Novel is more like a movie.
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#593022 - 11/09/11 11:38 AM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Alexander Ness]
MBunge Offline
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At one time, graphic novel had a snobbish element to it as people used it to distinguish certain work from those grubby comic books. The opening credits of The Walking Dead list it as being based on a series of graphic novels, for example. Despite that, graphic novel is now used more as a term of convenience in describing any comic work in book form.

Mike

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#593024 - 11/09/11 12:13 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: MBunge]
Joe Lee Offline
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Originally Posted By: MBunge
At one time, graphic novel had a snobbish element to it as people used it to distinguish certain work from those grubby comic books.
I remember that.

Didn't the waters get muddied when trade paperbacks like Watchmen and Dark Knight started being called Graphic Novels. Here were the two biggest books in most peoples minds, collected as TPB, and it seemed more correct to call the GN. Ongoing works like Sandman and Swampthing were being published monthly, serialized at the time, eventually collected in TPBs. And it seemed more correct to call the GN.

Should there be a distinction? A novel is a novel, a movie is a movie.

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#593028 - 11/09/11 03:31 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Joe Lee]
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I think pretty much everybody is right, 'graphic novel' has been used as a term of convenience and as an attempt to elevate a comic above other comics which are still 'funny books' in a lot of people's minds. Allen's right too that the term is often used inaccurately, but I have to say that common usage justifies itself when it comes to language. All I have to add is that I think length matters (what SHE said). Just like there is required number of pages to distinguish a novel from a novella or short story, it feels silly to call a comic under, say, 60 pages a graphic novel.

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#593032 - 11/09/11 04:20 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: MightyQuin]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Originally Posted By: MightyQuin
I have to say that common usage justifies itself when it comes to language.

Except for the use of "gay" and "fag" as general pejoratives, apparently.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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#593037 - 11/09/11 08:24 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Allen Montgomery]
MightyQuin Online   content
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I didn't say that very well, I just meant that common usage is the engine for words changing their meaning. The common usage becomes the correct use and the previous meaning becomes archaic. Otherwise, 'fag' would still be the short version of 'a bundle of sticks'. It's not a law or anything, you can still use it pejoratively if you want to, wait, hold up, maybe that IS a law now.

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#593038 - 11/09/11 08:36 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: MightyQuin]
Alexander Ness Online   shocked
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I've been told that some people in the UK call cigarettes fags, so smoking a fag there means something totally different than the same sentence here.

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#593043 - 11/09/11 09:25 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Alexander Ness]
MightyQuin Online   content
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Right, but this etymological (I looked it up!) detour wasn't your aim with this thread. Did you get the info you were looking for, Alex? More importantly,have you decided the best way to describe your many upcoming epic publications in promos/ads? TPB or graphic novel?

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#593045 - 11/09/11 09:29 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: MightyQuin]
Alexander Ness Online   shocked
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I am going to call any comic a sequential picture story, and call any prose or poetry work a word thingy

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#593051 - 11/10/11 12:08 AM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Alexander Ness]
MightyQuin Online   content
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That covers the bases!

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#593075 - 11/11/11 05:44 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: MightyQuin]
Joe Lee Offline
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How about:

Comic: A monthly, bi-monthly, quarterly saddle-stitched piece

Trade Paper Back: A book collecting old issues of The Hulk, Archie, Wolverine, Spiderman, Green Lantern, Batman

Graphic Novel: A book collecting old issues of The Spirit, Cerebus, Watchmen, Sandman, Dark Knight Returns, Sin City and/or crap like Blankets

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#593076 - 11/11/11 05:48 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Joe Lee]
Alexander Ness Online   shocked
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Perhaps yes. I am uncertain Blankets is actually crap however.

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#593078 - 11/11/11 05:56 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Alexander Ness]
Joe Lee Offline
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Crap is relative.

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#593079 - 11/11/11 06:01 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Joe Lee]
Alexander Ness Online   shocked
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Relatives aren't crap though?

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#593082 - 11/11/11 06:15 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Alexander Ness]
Joe Lee Offline
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All my relatives took all my crap.

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#593083 - 11/11/11 06:25 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Alexander Ness]
Joe Lee Offline
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oops

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#593746 - 12/03/11 03:19 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: MightyQuin]
steel: A Long Departed Hero Offline
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GN is what a nerd calls a comic.
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#593759 - 12/04/11 01:19 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: steel: A Long Departed Hero]
Peter Urkowitz Offline
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I also have a beef with the term "saddle-stitched" to refer to stapled comics with no stitching in them. I know that it's just a term imported from bookbinding, where they do use actual stitching, and refers more to the fact that the pages are folded at the spine. But what about "saddle-stapled" instead?

I know, just another nit-pick that probably nobody cares about. But it is one of the few real advantages that monthly comics have over collections, the ability to lay the whole book flat, so that double page spreads can actually be seen the way they were meant to.

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#593760 - 12/04/11 04:42 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Peter Urkowitz]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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And *SADDLE* stitched? Really? Like you're supposed to put it on a horse and ride away on it or something? Sheesh!
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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#593761 - 12/04/11 05:10 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Alexander Ness Online   shocked
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Ride em Urko Away!

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#593779 - 12/04/11 11:38 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Joe Lee Offline
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Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
And *SADDLE* stitched? Really? Like you're supposed to put it on a horse and ride away on it or something? Sheesh!
You've obviously never seen an old saddle stitcher. The books would have to be bound one at a time, and when you would place the book to be bound (or stapled for peter), on the machine, you look like you are putting a saddle on the machine.

Many digital presses have the stuff built in nowadays. Some copy shops and small printers still use them, some newer ones still look and work much the same way.

I think they still make hand held or desktop ones too.

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#593781 - 12/04/11 11:48 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Joe Lee]
Joe Lee Offline
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Yep, found one. Here's a basic desk model...

http://images.officesupersavers.com/photo3.php?SKU=SWI06155

I'm trying to find a pic of an older print-shop one, all the newer ones look like any other piece of equipment.

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#593782 - 12/04/11 11:52 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Joe Lee]
Joe Lee Offline
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Found an old antique desk or table mounted one, that looks pretty close to the old ones I remember, imagine this with a larger base for the "saddle" and on it's own stand, but the stapler was essentially the same...

http://www.1stopretroshop.com/vintage-office-studio/stapler-for-small-press-publishing.htm

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#593783 - 12/04/11 11:58 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Joe Lee]
Joe Lee Offline
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Here is a newer one, that would essentially be the same, one person station, one book at a time, can you see the angled base where you place the already collated and folded book? Like a roof?

http://www.aheadequipment.com/shop/product491.html

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#593786 - 12/05/11 01:07 AM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
You've obviously never seen an old saddle stitcher.

You've obviously never heard of sarcasm.
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"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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#593787 - 12/05/11 01:33 AM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Joe Lee Offline
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Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
You've obviously never heard of sarcasm.
NO. I honestly meant no offense, I thought you were just giving poor old poor Peter here, a good-natured hard time, without all the facts. But, I don't know why I would jump to that conclusion.

When I worked at print shops, I used to help out the guys in bindery when things were slow in the art department, so I had actually operated a saddle-stitcher on occasion. My favorite piece of machinery was the paper cutter, it had the look and feel of a short squat guillotine. The one I worked on looked a little like this one, but a little newer...

http://www.plotter-printers.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Old-Paper-Cutter.jpg

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#593820 - 12/05/11 02:57 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Joe Lee]
MightyQuin Online   content
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I worked at a commercial silk screening outfit for a while and it occurred to me that if you weren't reasonably careful, you could get hurt. Not as dangerous an occupation as firefighter or tree trimmer, but about on a par with auto mechanic. Operating large presses and trimmers while constantly breathing in acetone and ink thinners is an interesting combination, I trust you left there with all digits intact?

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#593823 - 12/05/11 05:15 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: MightyQuin]
Joe Lee Offline
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I do have a couple of nasty scars. Nothing all that cool or dramatic.

But the thought did occur to me once that the fumes and envelopes riding by repetitively on the machines may be the cause of mental illness. I might have witnessed someone literally going postal. Watching one of the pressmen operating a small one color press, running a one color envelope, which was giving him a hard time, I was working at the paper cutter, and he was getting progressively angrier just watching the press, as the envelopes went by, occasionally having to unjam but more or less uneventful. But still the press guy was getting tenser and tenser just watching the envelopes. I thought for sure I was on t something, this is what causes Postal workers to "go postal!"

Later he told me it was because he was having trouble getting it up to speed without it jamming and it would only run at half speed and he was anxious to leave so that blew that theory.

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#593826 - 12/05/11 06:42 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Joe Lee]
MightyQuin Online   content
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Everyone should have a few scars, if only to show they were able to sidestep more major damage. Maybe commercial silkscreening is a less automated, more hands-on operation. I don't know, but we always had our hands in acetone and xylene and other petroleum distillates especially in cleaning the screens. A couple months into the job, I thought to ask someone who did the screen cleaning before I got there. 'Oh, we had a girl, her name was such and such'. I was impressed that a girl could do that kind of work. Then, he said, 'she had to go because she said the skin was melting off her hands'. About then, I decided I would start looking for other work and only worked another couple months there. Also, the boss was a Jehovah's Witness, who are beautiful people usually I'm sure. But, he said the bible gave him the right to treat employees as indentured servants which he translated as meaning slaves and he was perfectly serious about it. All that was more than twenty years ago, but things have been better ever since!

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#593854 - 12/06/11 10:06 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: MightyQuin]
Peter Urkowitz Offline
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Thanks for the links to all those cool old printing supplies, Joe! I had never seen any of those before. I thought I was doing pretty well when I found a stapler with a longer-than-normal arm, kinda like this one:

http://images.discountofficeitems.com/orig/c56/8af/4d687ea107cf05d473b4a3309c45c3bb96.jpg

I gave that to my older son when he went off to college, as essential gear for doing minicomics and zines. But I trust that he will find his own, even more dangerous equipment as he makes his way in the world.

For instance, I like that description of the StitchMaster, where it becomes almost threatening: "Two StitchMasters can be connected to form an effective two-headed stitching machine." Foes of small publishing beware!

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#593855 - 12/06/11 10:11 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Peter Urkowitz]
Peter Urkowitz Offline
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And Allen, not to worry, I did laugh at your post!

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#593856 - 12/06/11 10:13 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Peter Urkowitz]
Peter Urkowitz Offline
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Cool story, MQuin!

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#594251 - 12/19/11 05:39 PM Re: difference between Graphic Novel and TPB [Re: Peter Urkowitz]
steel: A Long Departed Hero Offline
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I make graphic novels in parts, like VOLTRON.
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