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#595650 - 02/03/12 04:13 AM Re: DC Announces Watchmen Prequel(s) [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Gerald Offline
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Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1108
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Stop pretending this has anything to do with artistic expression, any kind of need to expand the stories of these characters or anything other than base corporate greed emanating from a market that has met its full saturation point (and then some).


Which doesn't have much to do with my last post. Wizard of Oz has 21 sequels NOT written by Frank Baum. I don't think that puts into question the reputation of book novels.

Comic books are a dying medium because they're are cheaper and better entertainment alternatives, not to mention the internet is hurting most periodic publications.
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#595651 - 02/03/12 04:41 AM Re: DC Announces Watchmen Prequel(s) [Re: Gerald]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
In the pantheon of watered down properties, Oz ranks right up there.
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#595652 - 02/03/12 09:31 AM Re: DC Announces Watchmen Prequel(s) [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Stop pretending this has anything to do with artistic expression, any kind of need to expand the stories of these characters or anything other than base corporate greed emanating from a market that has met its full saturation point (and then some).
That could pretty much describe most of DC and Marvel's output. Any artistic expression has always been in the service of making money for the corporation. That's just the way it is, that's their business, no art for art's sake. An Idea may or may not have much artistic merit, but if it has the potential to sell well, then you have a corporate comic.

Watchmen sequels are just a little more obvious because it was a limited series to begin with, and it's always been a sacred cow.

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#595653 - 02/03/12 10:06 AM Re: DC Announces Watchmen Prequel(s) [Re: Joe Lee]
MBunge Offline
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Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 3386
Loc: Waterloo, Iowa, United States
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
Watchmen sequels are just a little more obvious because it was a limited series to begin with, and it's always been a sacred cow.


What's obvious about it is that these are prequels. A sequel to WATCHMEN could conceivably have some artistic merit and take on issues in the comic industry and wider world like the original did. It probably wouldn't, but you could at least argue about it. These prequels, even if they're not horrible, are pretty much undeniable cash grabs and nothing more.

Mike

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#595654 - 02/03/12 10:52 AM Re: DC Announces Watchmen Prequel(s) [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Lawson Offline
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Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Originally Posted By: Lawson
I expect that Len's story is going to get sadder yet.


I know his house burnt down a few years ago, is that what you're referring to?

My suspicion is that Wein was recruited under the premise of doing something similar to what Moore did with Wein's character, Swamp Thing. It's probably a lingering jealousy that he is not the definitive writer of his own creation.


No, I didn't know Len Wein's house burned down.

I was just voicing a general thought that Wein, now well into his 60s, seems somewhat grubby and desperate to be signing on here.

Does he really think himself the equal of Alan Moore as a writer? Based on what? Wein's significant contribution to comics was -- what -- being editor in chief at Marvel for 15 minutes -- and co-creating Swamp Thing and Wolverine 40 years ago? (I dunno what "co-creating" even means here. Artists Bernie Wrightson and Herb Trimpe actually designed what those characters looked like. Wein said, "I want a Hulk villain with claws in his gloves! Call him Wolverine!")

In my mind, it's a steep fall from editing WATCHMEN to presuming that you're fit to write WATCHMEN 2: THE WONDER YEARS. But it's a short step from that to pleasuring old men behind the grocery store to make this month's rent. I just don't see the Len Wein story ending happily after this.

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#595655 - 02/03/12 11:06 AM Re: DC Announces Watchmen Prequel(s) [Re: Lawson]
MBunge Offline
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Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 3386
Loc: Waterloo, Iowa, United States
Originally Posted By: Lawson
I was just voicing a general thought that Wein, now well into his 60s, seems somewhat grubby and desperate to be signing on here.


Since he actually was involved in the original, I'd say that makes Wein far less grubby than the other creators involved.

Mike

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#595656 - 02/03/12 11:15 AM Re: DC Announces Watchmen Prequel(s) [Re: MBunge]
Lawson Offline
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Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Originally Posted By: MBunge
Since he actually was involved in the original, I'd say that makes Wein far less grubby than the other creators involved.


Respectfully, I'd say just the opposite.

The others are ignoring Alan Moore's wishes by recycling this old story, but -- who knows, they may never have met Moore. To Darwyn Cooke, Brian Azzhat, JMS and the others, Moore may be just another old coot who actually invented great stories -- something they don't know how to do -- and from whose stories they freely may pillage, lacking much in the way of creativity themselves.

Wein, on the other hand, obviously knows Moore. He edited WATCHMEN. Now he presumes to replace Moore as the writer on this story that Moore, not Wein, invented and wrote.

It may be "nothing personal" with the others, but not so with Wein.

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#595657 - 02/03/12 11:24 AM Re: DC Announces Watchmen Prequel(s) [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Lawson Offline
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Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Originally Posted By: Lawson
I'm disappointed by Darwyn Cooke. Unlike Allen, I like Cooke's stuff. But I may have to reassess.

When are you people going to learn that my judgment is impeccable?


Unfortunately, I seem to have been wrong about Cooke. Cooke swore for years that he wanted to be his own man, write and draw his own stories, stop recycling other people's stuff. I took him seriously, foolishly.

When Cooke recycled Will Eisner's The Spirit, and people complained about his lack of originality, I noted that Cooke had secured the blessings of Eisner before the old man's death.

When Cooke recycled Donald Westlake's Parker crime novels, and people again complained about his lack of originality, I noted that Cooke had secured the blessings of Westlake before the old man's death.

Now we've got WATCHMEN 2, and Alan Moore has pleaded with the comics industry for decades to leave the goddamn thing alone already, but Cooke smells an easy paycheck, so fuck it, time for another recycling.

Cooke clearly doesn't care what the creators think, not being a creator himself. He may have just been humoring Eisner and Westlake. Or -- given that they both died after he allegedly got their blessings but before his adaptations appeared -- I have to wonder if he just made it up. Did Eisner or Westlake put anything in writing?

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#595658 - 02/03/12 11:24 AM Re: DC Announces Watchmen Prequel(s) [Re: MBunge]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: MBunge
A sequel to WATCHMEN could conceivably have some artistic merit and take on issues in the comic industry and wider world like the original did. It probably wouldn't, but you could at least argue about it.

Ironically enough, if DC had gone the route of Marvel's recent Strange Tales miniseries and had alt-comics jerkholes doing this, I wouldn't mind it at all. If it were announced that the control of the content of these backstories had been given to, say, Jim Mahfood, I would actually be praising the move.

The problem is that the creative teams they've got are going to play it straight, lift techniques and passages from the original without irony or satire and generally treat the source material with reverance. The most they might possibly do is introduce incongruent elements that inadvertantly negate or undercut some of the impact of the original. We've actually got a recent example of this in the prequel to John Carpenter's The Thing. If only MacReady had realized the creature couldn't emulate dental fillings and earrings!
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"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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#595659 - 02/03/12 11:30 AM Re: DC Announces Watchmen Prequel(s) [Re: Lawson]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: Lawson
I noted that Cooke had secured the blessings of Westlake before the old man's death.

I had never heard of Parker or Westlake before Cooke's adaptations, so I didn't know this. When added to the similar claim with Eisner, it casts an interesting shadow. Of doubt, that is.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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