Page 12 of 15 < 1 2 ... 10 11 12 13 14 15 >
Topic Options
#596092 - 02/21/12 12:12 PM Re: Was Gary Friedrich screwed by Marvel? [Re: MBunge]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: MBunge
The tragedy of Kirby is less about Marvel screwing him and more about how when the public taste cooled toward him, his ego/pride left him unwilling or incapable of finding the soft landing spot he should have had with either Marvel or DC.
Do you have any examples of these soft landing spots that Marvel and DC give out?

Top
#596097 - 02/21/12 03:00 PM Re: Was Gary Friedrich screwed by Marvel? [Re: MBunge]
Lawson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Originally Posted By: MBunge
The tragedy of Kirby is less about Marvel screwing him and more about how when the public taste cooled toward him, his ego/pride left him unwilling or incapable of finding the soft landing spot he should have had with either Marvel or DC.


Stan Lee's style of writing fell out of favor around the same time Jack Kirby's style of drawing did -- the late 1960s.

However, Stan became the publisher, and then the publisher emeritus, at Marvel and drew a fat salary while lecturing at college campuses and not making movies in Hollywood. Jack had no such financial security. He was no one's nephew. He had to keep drawing comic books into his old age until the animation industry finally threw him a bone in the 1980s.

In the decade after Stan and Jack parted ways, Jack worked like a fiend, launching a half-dozen new titles at DC that continue to be mined for ideas today -- returning to Marvel -- and then producing his own work at indie publishers.

If there was a soft landing spot for Kirby, someone should have pointed it out to him.

Top
#596098 - 02/21/12 05:15 PM Re: Was Gary Friedrich screwed by Marvel? [Re: Lawson]
shjonescrk Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 1351
Loc: Airdrie, Scotland
Lawson, you're suggest that because "Stan Lee's style of writing fell out of favour" was the reason he stopped writing comics. I don't think that is the case at all. He'd been writing and editing comics for nearly 30 years so decided it was time to move on to a more executive role.

The reason why Jack fell out of favour is that simply his new stuff wasn't anywhere near as good as his best stuff from the mid-60s and his writing was not very good either. At times, unreadable and I speak as a fan. Jack never did any really good work after he returned to Marvel and beyond. There were exceptions, of course, but much of it wasn't very good.

Since he stopped writing comics in the early 70s, Stan has been promoting Marvel, comics and himself on a daily basis. Whatever deal Stan got with Marvel, I think Marvel got their money's worth. Basically, they didn't give money because he was someone's nephew and anyway his uncle was long gone anyway.

Of course, Marvel should have looked after a comic book great like Kirby and made sure he was looked after as they should look after all their old staff from the 60s and 70s. Stan did offer Jack a staff position of art director in the 60s but he refused it as he got paid more as a freelance.

Top
#596099 - 02/21/12 05:33 PM Re: Was Gary Friedrich screwed by Marvel? [Re: shjonescrk]
Lawson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
I'm reading Kirby's Fourth World comics right now, which he wrote and drew in the early 1970s, not long after leaving Marvel.

For my money, they're as good as most of his Marvel work -- batshit insane in many respects, yes, but full of energy and creativity. I think the Fourth World failed, as much as anything, because it was too big and sweeping an epic than young comics readers were prepared for in 1970-whatever.

Top
#596100 - 02/21/12 06:41 PM Re: Was Gary Friedrich screwed by Marvel? [Re: shjonescrk]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: shjonescrk
Of course, Marvel should have looked after a comic book great like Kirby and made sure he was looked after as they should look after all their old staff from the 60s and 70s. Stan did offer Jack a staff position of art director in the 60s but he refused it as he got paid more as a freelance.
A staff job that paid less than he was already making? You'd have to be insane to not take that. Less money is how I'd want to be, "looked after."

I'm sure Stan took a huge cut in pay when he went from Editor to Publisher.

Top
#596101 - 02/21/12 06:46 PM Re: Was Gary Friedrich screwed by Marvel? [Re: Lawson]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Lawson
I'm reading Kirby's Fourth World comics right now, which he wrote and drew in the early 1970s, not long after leaving Marvel.

For my money, they're as good as most of his Marvel work -- batshit insane in many respects, yes, but full of energy and creativity.
I'm reading the Kamandi Omnibus right now. Great comics, some of the greatest ever, very fun. And some seriously crazy stuff.

I love his stuff from around this time. The Demon, Omac, the whole Fourth World, then back to Marvel, The Eternals and Black Panther and his return to Cap. Even Devil Dinosaur. That should have been a Saturday morning cartoon and toy line.

Top
#596103 - 02/21/12 11:26 PM Re: Was Gary Friedrich screwed by Marvel? [Re: Joe Lee]
ChrisW Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
Quote:
A staff job that paid less than he was already making? You'd have to be insane to not take that. Less money is how I'd want to be, "looked after."


He got paid so much because he drew so much (which we're all grateful for). The staff job wasn't worth as much.

Quote:
I'm sure Stan took a huge cut in pay when he went from Editor to Publisher.


This is where it does help to show up to the office every day for twenty+ years. Someone earlier in the thread pointed out Kirby tried to avoid working with people anyway, so a daily commute to the office wouldn't have been a plus.

These are the sorts of trade-offs that have to be made. In an internet-based world, it's easy to pontificate what Lee deserved, but every week was another chance for unlettered "Tales of Asgard" pages to go out in the middle of an issue of "Captain America" and it wouldn't be Kirby who got the blame for this or any other mishaps.

Keeping all sorts of moving parts going is a difficult task, and Lee did it for years. Also, without Lee, Kirby would be remembered as a notable creator of popular books and Ditko might be noticed as an artist if anything. They wouldn't be "The King" and the co-creator of Spider-Man.

This doesn't deny that the creators of valuable properties should get more from their work, particularly if they were created under archaic terms, but there's no way to do it that won't open a huge can of worms as a precedent for nuisance lawsuits.
_________________________
If This Be... PayPal!!!

"I think ChrisW is the funniest man in entertainment still alive..."
-- the perceptive Tom Spurgeon

Top
#596104 - 02/21/12 11:34 PM Re: Was Gary Friedrich screwed by Marvel? [Re: Joe Lee]
Peter Urkowitz Offline
Member

Registered: 08/28/00
Posts: 3231
Loc: Salem, MA, USA
In the 1980's, DC gave Kirby the opportunity to do some redesign work on his New Gods characters that they wanted to use in their animated TV shows. That allowed DC to give Kirby royalties for the use of those characters under the terms of their more generous contracts of the time, whereas just using his 1970's designs could have been done under more restricted contract terms. That was a relatively soft landing, although not enough for Kirby to retire completely.

Top
#596114 - 02/22/12 11:27 AM Re: Was Gary Friedrich screwed by Marvel? [Re: Peter Urkowitz]
Lawson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Originally Posted By: Peter Urkowitz
In the 1980's, DC gave Kirby the opportunity to do some redesign work on his New Gods characters that they wanted to use in their animated TV shows. ...


Yes, this is a nice story and a credit to -- I believe -- Jenette Kahn, publisher of DC Comics at the time. DC ended up being more generous to Kirby than the company he built.

Top
#596115 - 02/22/12 11:31 AM Re: Was Gary Friedrich screwed by Marvel? [Re: Joe Lee]
Lawson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
I'm reading the Kamandi Omnibus right now. Great comics, some of the greatest ever, very fun. And some seriously crazy stuff.

I love his stuff from around this time. The Demon, Omac, the whole Fourth World, then back to Marvel, The Eternals and Black Panther and his return to Cap. Even Devil Dinosaur. That should have been a Saturday morning cartoon and toy line.


As a wee fanboy in the late 1970s, early 1980s, I didn't "get" Kirby. I wanted the realistic-looking stuff, like Neal Adams, Marshall Rogers, George Perez and John Byrne. Kirby was insane! His stories were nutty and his art was this frenetic explosion of cartoons and color.

I had to become an adult to properly appreciate the stuff that Kirby was aiming at kids during the 1970s. I dunno if that says more about him or me. His relatively weak sales in the 1970s suggests that a lot of kids felt as I did. But in hindsight, yeah, I love his comics now.

Top
Page 12 of 15 < 1 2 ... 10 11 12 13 14 15 >


Moderator:  Rick Veitch, Steve Conley