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#596288 - 03/05/12 07:14 PM Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty
Jimbo Offline
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DC's Captain Marvel, now known purely in the New 52 as Shazam, is getting the grim and gritty treatment courtesy of Comicon.com's favorite punching bag Geoff Johns:



You can read more about the controversial yet unsurprising change-up here.

Discuss!
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#596289 - 03/05/12 07:28 PM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: Jimbo]
Alexander Ness Online   shocked
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Registered: 09/17/03
Posts: 3843
Loc: Minnesota
Easy to discuss: That shit is retarded.

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#596290 - 03/05/12 08:40 PM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: Alexander Ness]
Happy Birthday HouseOfMisterE Offline
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Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 268
Loc: Huntsville, AL
The Ness finger is definitely appropriate in this case.

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#596291 - 03/05/12 10:32 PM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: HouseOfMisterE]
Carlton Donaghe Offline
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Registered: 11/23/98
Posts: 1619
Loc: the American Desert
Geoff Johns has a very limited range to his writing ability.

People give Stan Lee shit, but he could write westerns, sci-fi, teen humor, humor, super-heroes, mysteries, horror, twist-endings, you name it. And it wasn't just Lee, and it wasn't just artists. Think of the range of John Romita.

Johns is a one-note writer, and Jim Lee's art is stuck in the 1990's.

In fact, I think there's a scarcity of people with imagination writing comics for the big two. Not that there aren't any, but there aren't many. And too many folks who lack imagination, like Johns, Jim Lee, and Didio, are in control.

Speaking of which, do you know I'm going on ten months without BUYING any new Marvel or DC?
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#596293 - 03/05/12 11:18 PM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: Carlton Donaghe]
Gerald Offline
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Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1108
I like Captain Marvel stories where he's the only super-like hero in the universe. The world's mightiest mortal shouldn't not be shoehorned into the DCU and be a b-lister.

Geoff Johns likes to take these characters back to their roots so I don't think it will be too bad. But the only good Captain Marvel stories were in the 40s, DC's Power of Hope...and that's it.
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#596296 - 03/06/12 07:50 AM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: Gerald]
IvanJim Offline
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Registered: 06/16/01
Posts: 2865
Loc: Los Angeles
I believe that Alex has perfectly described the situation.

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#596297 - 03/06/12 09:42 AM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: Alexander Ness]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Alexander Ness
That shit is retarded.
Yes it is.

Does DC not learn from any mistakes? Making Superman grim & gritty failed, (Superman Returns). Why would this work.

Where are the Claws of Shazam? Would all the letters in SHAZAM change too? Some more modern, grim and gritty initials, like he's wearing a gun of some historical figure starting with the letter "Z" or "M" or something.

Wouldn't someone with the Wisdom of Solomon know that there are better ways to keep your ears warm than a hood. When I first looked at the picture I thought it was some kind of crossover where Hourman had said Shazam.

Originally Posted By: Gerald
I like Captain Marvel stories where he's the only super-like hero in the universe. The world's mightiest mortal shouldn't not be shoehorned into the DCU and be a b-lister

Yes! In a world with Superman Captain Marvel is redundant. In a world with a Dark Knight, Captain Marvel is out of place. It would be like Disney telling Marvel to insert Winnie the Pooh or The Little Mermaid into the Marvel Universe.

Too bad Disney doesn't own Shazam, the Disney version of Tarzan is is closer to the appropriate sensibility for a Captain Marvel.

They keep doing the same thing over and over.

The Blue Beetle was Charlton's Batman. So at some point someone notices and decides it's redundant and reimagines the character completely differently. Now the same with Shazam. Now he's going to be magic guy, so he isn't just Fawcett's whimsical Superman type.

Why buy these characters only to realize you've already got some just like them? It's like that joke on the Justice League unlimited episode with Booster Gold and Elongated Man, where Ralph is talking about Plastic Man, "...they've already got a stretchy guy."


Edited by Joe Lee (03/06/12 09:57 AM)

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#596300 - 03/06/12 10:15 AM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Offline
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Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
It would be like Disney telling Marvel to insert Winnie the Pooh or The Little Mermaid into the Marvel Universe.

Don't give Ed Brubaker any ideas.
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If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
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#596305 - 03/06/12 10:38 AM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: Jimbo]
MBunge Offline
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Registered: 07/19/01
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Loc: Waterloo, Iowa, United States
About the only thing you can say in DC's defense is they have tried and tried and tried to do something with Captain Marvel and none of it has wound up selling comics. Taking advantage of the New 52 to Blue Beetlize him probably looks to them like all they have left.

Mike

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#596307 - 03/06/12 02:21 PM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: Joe Lee]
Gerald Offline
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Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1108
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee

Why buy these characters only to realize you've already got some just like them?

Because they don't want competition. So they just buy it.

It's just a bonus if WB can make a successful cartoon or movie out of it.
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#596308 - 03/06/12 02:34 PM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: MBunge]
Gerald Offline
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Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1108
Originally Posted By: MBunge
About the only thing you can say in DC's defense is they have tried and tried and tried to do something with Captain Marvel and none of it has wound up selling comics. Mike


Yeah but they don't put the talent and promotion behind a Captain Marvel comic like they do Superman.

I think they gave him a hood so he could look more like a warlock/magician for a more visual connection to this newly stressed magic aspect.


Edited by Gerald (03/06/12 04:49 PM)
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#596309 - 03/06/12 02:53 PM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: Gerald]
Alexander Ness Online   shocked
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Registered: 09/17/03
Posts: 3843
Loc: Minnesota
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Shazam!

This was good, for what it was.

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#596313 - 03/06/12 07:44 PM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: Alexander Ness]
Paul W. Sondersted, Jr. Offline
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Registered: 07/22/01
Posts: 4593
Loc: Sparks, Nevada, United States
I dug the hell out of the original graphic novel (in hardcover, no less!) & it seemed like it was in it's own continuity. Then the ongoing series came out & it was entertaining enough, but still very blatantly a part of the DC Universe. Too bad.

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#596314 - 03/06/12 07:58 PM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: Paul W. Sondersted, Jr.]
Alexander Ness Online   shocked
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Registered: 09/17/03
Posts: 3843
Loc: Minnesota
I think catering to the hugely anal retentive over arching sense of continuity is what started the long run of shitty massive crossover events, and crisis driven stories that screwed both Marvel and DC. Fortunately I have all my comics, or my son does, and I can read what was good before the deluge.

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#596318 - 03/06/12 08:40 PM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: Alexander Ness]
Carlton Donaghe Offline
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Registered: 11/23/98
Posts: 1619
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Gerald, I totally agree with you that Captain Marvel should be in his own universe, him, the Marvel Family, and all the Fawcett heroes.

DC should spin that off into its own line, same with the Charlton characters, and expand things that way.
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#596326 - 03/07/12 10:14 PM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: Jimbo]
steel: A Long Departed Hero Offline
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#596332 - 03/09/12 12:12 AM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: steel: A Long Departed Hero]
steel: A Long Departed Hero Offline
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To be serious: After hearing about the poor Nu-Earth-2 Superman and seeing all the horror and junk, I'm pretty much done with DC. I might read an ACTION COMICS here and there, but I doubt I'll follow much of their stuff moving forward. I loved their stuff, but I just have to focus on brighter things.

Scott
http://www.thebarbariancomic.blogspot.com
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#596336 - 03/09/12 01:47 AM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: steel: A Long Departed Hero]
Carlton Donaghe Offline
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Registered: 11/23/98
Posts: 1619
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Steel, I think someone with as much creative drive as you have and as much love for... certain aspects and characters in the Superman mythology would just take the dive and do your own pirate version of them.

For instance, if you were really going to go for it, and make the Steel Comic you think the character deserves, bringing out all the qualities you think make him so fascinating, what would you do?

I don't mean do it as fan fiction, I mean do it as an act of protest against what is really a senseless and destructive use (or misuse, or lack of use) of intellectual property. If they, who own it, are simply going to piss away the character, someone might as well at least make use of it, right?
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#596339 - 03/09/12 03:01 AM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: Carlton Donaghe]
Jimbo Offline
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#596373 - 03/11/12 01:34 AM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: Carlton Donaghe]
steel: A Long Departed Hero Offline
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Originally Posted By: Carlton Donaghe
Steel, I think someone with as much creative drive as you have and as much love for... certain aspects and characters in the Superman mythology would just take the dive and do your own pirate version of them.

For instance, if you were really going to go for it, and make the Steel Comic you think the character deserves, bringing out all the qualities you think make him so fascinating, what would you do?

I don't mean do it as fan fiction, I mean do it as an act of protest against what is really a senseless and destructive use (or misuse, or lack of use) of intellectual property. If they, who own it, are simply going to piss away the character, someone might as well at least make use of it, right?


Thanks for the question!

The current direction of Steel is not what I would have chosen. His old origin was so cool. The stuff from Reign to Amertek and beyond was just awesome.

However, there was some cool stuff in this month's back-up.


SPOILERS
Steel saved a cruise ship!
Grandma Bess is still alive!
SPOILERS


I have tons of ideas, scripts, outlines, and pitches for Steel stories, but I'm keeping everything in a drawer for the time when I have enough heat to work for DC.

eXcElsiOR!

Scott
http://www.theBARBARIANcomic.blogspot.com

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#596458 - 03/14/12 11:03 PM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: Jimbo]
steel: A Long Departed Hero Offline
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Aw, hell, just read this--

PANEL 1: Sweat pours down his dirtied face, as SUPERMAN grits his teeth and fights his daunting foe IDIOT BOX (pale, 15-feet-tall, stretched torso and extremities, black loincloth, old antennaed and knobbed black and white television for a head) in the rubble of the street in front of the DAILY PLANET BUILDING, as rain pours from the night sky.

A CROWD of people, containing one camera-wielding JIMMY OLSEN, watches the fight with unrivaled excitement.

TITLE: AMERICAN WAY

CREDITS

JIMMY THINKS: This footage is killer!

PANEL 2: Close-up on Jimmy's puzzled face.

JIMMY THINKS: Huh?!?

PANEL 3: Jimmy looks on, as Superman continues to fight Idiot Box.

JIMMY THINKS: Could have sworn Supes disappeared.

PANEL 4: An enthusiastic Superman smiles and flies through the cool night air of the Smallville wheat fields. The leafs on the trees shimmer, as he passes.

CAPTION: A split second ago in Smallville...

SUPERMAN THINKS: What a great break! I feel totally rejuvenated and ready to finish the fight!

PAGE 2:

PANEL 1: An old PICK-UP TRUCK drives down a dark country road outside Smallville, miles away from anyone.

SUPERMAN CAPTION: "Wait! What's that?!?"

CAPTION: Moments before and down the road a piece...

CAR RADIO: --is sure to foil the nefarious plans of this boob-tube-brained--

PANEL 2: MIKE (18, wearing a cowboy hat and boots and chewing tobacco) drives, while MORGAN (17, attractive, wearing a stylish scarf and party dress) turns down the volume KNOB on the car radio to talk to him. It's easy to see why they're in love.

MORGAN: Could you believe what Jenny said about Danny's hair?

MIKE: Yeah, that was funny. If I got a dumb haircut, would you talk about me that way?

MORGAN: You know that's right!

PANEL 3: A SPACESHIP shoots out of the sky towards a field a mile down the road.

MORGAN: Whoa!

PANEL 3: The ship crashes into the field with an impact that shakes the car intensely.

SFX: BWOOMM

PANEL 4: Morgan and Mike freak out.

MORGAN: Did you see that?!?

MIKE: Uh... Yeah!

MORGAN: Let's check it out!

MIKE: I don't think--

MORGAN: Come on!

MIKE: Okay.

MORGAN: Yes!

PAGE 3:

PANEL 1: The truck pulls off the road by the crashed spaceship, surrounded by fire, that sticks out of the field and keeps the lights running.

MIKE: Stay close to me.

MORGAN: Okay! Okay!

MIKE: I mean it!

PANEL 2: Morgan giggles and runs ahead.

MORGAN: Come on!

PANEL 2: Mike runs after Morgan.

MIKE: Hey! Slow down!

PANEL 3: The two are blown backwards by a gust of warm air, as the spaceship's HATCH DOOR opens.

SFX: FWOOM

PANEL 4: Mike pleads hysterically with Morgan.

MIKE: Let's go back! Come on! You know you want to go back!

PANEL 5: Morgan keeps walking towards the spaceship.

MIKE: Morgan! Morgan! Wait!

PAGE 4:

PANEL 1: A baby VARVUX (alien dog with the face of a squirrel) merges from the craft, and the two humans freeze in their tracks.

VARVUX: RROOOQQ!

PANEL 2: The varvux suddenly runs towards Morgan. Mike races to save her, but is too far back to even get close.

MIKE: Morgan!!!

PANEL 3: The varvux pounces on Morgan and pins her to the ground.

MORGAN: AAAAA!!!

PANEL 4: The varvux puts Morgan's entire head into its mouth, as Mike watches in horror from twenty feet away.

MIKE: Noooo!!!

PAGE 5:

PANEL 1: Mike runs back to the truck at full speed.

PANEL 2: Mike gasps for air and jumps into the truck.

PANEL 3: Mike fiddles around furiously looking for his keys.

PANEL 4: Mike starts the truck and peels out as fast as he can down the road.

SFX: SCREEEEEEEEEEEE

PANEL 5: Mike's breathing gets more chaotic and he continues down the road.

PAGE 6:

PANEL 1: Mike takes deep soothing breaths to get his breathing under control.

PANEL 2: Mike turns on the radio to see if that can calm him down.

RADIO: --Bizarro, accompanied by what appears to be a Bizarro duplicate of the superhero Steel, has now declared to the citizens of Metropolis, "They am destroy you worse."--

PANEL 3: Mike's breathing starts to slow a little.

RADIO: --and valiantly hurled themselves into the costly war against the new Brainiac/Idiot Box Team--

PANEL 4: Mike's tire blows out, and he goes back into panic mode.

SFX: BWOONK

PANEL 5: Mike tries to control the truck as he wildly pulls off the road.

PAGE 7:

PANEL 1: Mike gets out of the truck to see that the front driver's side TIRE is COMPLETELY SHREDDED.

MIKE: Dang it!

PANEL 2: Mike kneels down to examine the tire more closely and finds that the tire was BURNED BY INTENSE HEAT.

MIKE: What could have burned up my tire like this?

PANEL 3: Mike starts HYPERVENTILATING and opens the truck and pulls out his jack.

MIKE: It doesn't matter!

PANEL 4: Suddenly, TWO DOVES fly right past Mike's head and startle him.

SFX: FLPLP

MIKE: I have to get out of here! AAAAA!!!

PANEL 5: Mike looks up to see the two beautiful doves fly over the grandeur of the wheat fields and off into the tranquil night sky.

PANEL 6: His face contorts and he remembers Morgan.

PAGE 8:

PANEL 1: Mike tightens the spare.

CAPTION: Moments later...

MIKE: Okay! Ready to go!

PANEL 2: A GUST OF WIND violently slaps Morgan's SCARF over Joe's entire face.

SFX: WMP

PANEL. 3: Joe pulls the scarf off his face and looks at it with intense emotion.

PANEL 4: Mike drove his truck through the wood fence and ran out of it to pull Morgan away from the spot where she stands by the spaceship. Mike pulls Morgan away with all of his strength.

CAPTION: One minute later...

MIKE: Morgan! Let's go!

PAGE 9:

PANEL 1: The varvux pounces on Mike and knocks him to the ground with his entire head in its mouth.

VARVUX: RROOOQQ!

MIKE: Aaaaaa--!

PANEL 2: The varvux pops Mike's smiling, slobber-covered head out of its mouth and smiles.

SFX: SLRP

PANEL 3: Mike euphorically apologizes.

MIKE: Sorry I got scared.

PANEL 4: Morgan euphorically forgives him.

MORGAN: It's okay.

PANEL 5: Mike and Morgan kiss.

MIKE: I love you.

MORGAN: I love you.

PAGE 10:

PANEL 1: Superman descends upon the loving couple.

SUPERMAN: I see you found a varvux.

MORGAN: Superman!?! Wha-- Uh, to whom do-- Uh

MIKE: We are your biggest fans!

SUPERMAN: Hello. I came to inform you that this is a varvux, one of a species of domesticated animals found on another planet, and to assure you that it is completely harmless. It actually radiates an energy that promotes growth in both plants and animals.

PANEL 2: Superman picks up the varvux and pets it. The spot where the varvux sat is covered with new PATCH of beautiful wildflowers.

MORGAN: Why did it crash-land here?

SUPERMAN: Varvuxes come from a planet called Varset, where the people believe it is better to shoot their stray animals into space than it is to simply euthanize them. These people practice a religion that dictates that this practice gives the animals the proper amount of chance for survival.

MORGAN: Well, this one has a long life ahead of her!

MIKE: Honey! Maybe Superman wants to keep it!

MORGAN: Don't be silly! Superman obviously doesn't have time to care for a pet! We'll take her!

PANEL 3: Superman smiles and winks, as the readers see FLASHBACKS to everything he's done: popping Mike's tire with heat vision, flying in the doves from another town, plucking Morgan's scarf off her neck and flying it into Mike's face.

SUPERMAN: Super.
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#596474 - 03/15/12 10:20 PM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: steel: A Long Departed Hero]
Carlton Donaghe Offline
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Registered: 11/23/98
Posts: 1619
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So, you seem to like a fairly lighthearted Superman. Do you feel this portrays an effective example of the kind of Superman comics you'd like to see?
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Carlton Donaghe
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#596493 - 03/17/12 09:28 PM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: Carlton Donaghe]
steel: A Long Departed Hero Offline
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Yeah, that's Superman. He never gives up and always takes the chance to have a laugh.
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#596521 - 03/19/12 02:43 PM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: Jimbo]
steel: A Long Departed Hero Offline
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Loc: The MBA (Mysterious Blue Area)...
Since this script is up for the whole board to see, does anyone have any opinions on it? I'm honestly not sure if it works or not, so your opinions would be pretty valuable to me.
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#596522 - 03/19/12 03:07 PM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: steel: A Long Departed Hero]
Ceci n'est pas une chaussette Offline
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Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 2840
I like how you tell us how we're supposed to feel about the characters instead of giving us a reason to do so. Like when you say, "It's easy to see why they're in love; after all, he is wearing a hat, and she is wearing a dress." It's almost as if you can't write a character with any personality, so you just tell us, "They're supposed to be in love, okay? And likable. You should probably assume they're likable, so you can care what happens to them."

I also like how the artist is specifically instructed to not make the TV-themed villain look like any television available today. I can't wait until Superman fights Ham Radio Man, or other enduring cultural symbols of relevance to today's youth.
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#596523 - 03/19/12 03:42 PM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: Ceci n'est pas une chaussette]
MBunge Offline
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Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 3386
Loc: Waterloo, Iowa, United States
Originally Posted By: Ceci n'est pas une chaussette
It's almost as if you can't write a character with any personality.


I think I can speak for most of the civilized world when I say, better no personality than anything that resembles yours.

Mike

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#596525 - 03/19/12 04:45 PM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: MBunge]
Ceci n'est pas une chaussette Offline
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Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 2840
Honestly, Mike: I've never seen someone respond so badly, for so many months, to being called stupid a couple times. I'm sorry it hurt you so badly. I hope someday you can recover.

Also, I hope you stop being so stupid. That seems to be the root of a lot of your pain.
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- Ed Gauthier, DCP

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#596527 - 03/19/12 05:07 PM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: Ceci n'est pas une chaussette]
Joe Lee Offline
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Has DC ever tried a grim and gritty approach with Captain M/Shazam before?

I was just thinking the grim and gritty could have worked if it was just the environment, not the Captain Marvel character as well, he would remain idealistic, and super-boy-scoutey. A sort of "Tick" approach.

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#596531 - 03/19/12 10:12 PM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: MBunge]
Allen Montgomery Offline
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Posts: 7068
Originally Posted By: MBunge
I think I can speak for most of the civilized world

It's probably best you don't try to over-exert yourself.
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If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
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#596536 - 03/19/12 10:33 PM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: Joe Lee]
Peter Urkowitz Offline
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Registered: 08/28/00
Posts: 3231
Loc: Salem, MA, USA
Not sure, but this Trials of Shazam series from 2006, written by Judd Winick, looked semi-dark.

http://www.comicbookdb.com/title.php?ID=9317

I think it featured Captain Marvel Jr. (Freddy Freeman) taking on the Captain Marvel role after Billy Batson died, and he had to fight with others over the right to the power?

http://www.comicbookdb.com/graphics/comic_graphics/1/227/113794_20071128202424_large.jpg

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#596555 - 03/20/12 06:34 AM Re: Captain Shazam Gets Grim and Gritty [Re: Peter Urkowitz]
Ted Kilvington Offline
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Registered: 05/10/99
Posts: 1080
Loc: Mason, MI, USA
The 1987 "Shazam!: The New Beginning" mini-series by Roy Thomas and Tom Mandrake was a very dark post-Crisis approach.
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