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#597056 - 04/30/12 02:41 PM Re: Actually, no, it was Joe Simon [Re: Gerald]
Lawson Online   content
Member

Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11953
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Originally Posted By: Gerald
If Alan Moore and DC had put out Minutemen, the original prequel to Watchmen, I so would have bought that.


At the time, I would have, too. Of course, it was the 1980s and I was an adolescent fanboy. Frank Miller had yet to show us the perils of letting even the original creators muck about with a sequel.

But Moore, for whatever reason, discarded his plan for the Minutemen project. I think some of the source material ended up in a Watchmen role-playing game.

Twenty-five years have passed since WATCHMEN. The story ended. The creators moved on to other things. For DC to return to that well at this late date shows that it's as creatively exhausted as Moore likes to say it is.

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#597059 - 04/30/12 04:42 PM Re: Actually, no, it was Joe Simon [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 6915
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
Moore says he was wrong to work on all those corporate owned characters.

Yes. Swamp Thing, Superman, Green Lantern, etc. Not Watchmen.


Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
Allen is trying to make the argument that when Moore writes a story using characters created by other authors they somehow become unique, and anyone who uses the same characters after Moore, is just trying to exploit Moore's versions, not doing the same thing he did.

Okay, I'll try and use small words and a lot of paragraph breaks so maybe you can understand.

Moore stole characters for LoEG and Lost Girls.

Stealing characters is a common literary tradition.

Moore stole from many sources, for the purposes of creating a mash-up.

Moore refers primarily to the public's images of the characters he stole.

Moore rarely refers to specific story elements in the original works.

Moore is not attempting to build additional events that anyone should consider fitting into the continuity of the original works.



---Watchmen 2, on the other hand...

...takes only from one source: Watchmen.

...is attempting to expand the canonical continuity of Watchmen.

...is only being put out to capitalize on the current popularity of Alan Moore.

(note: there is no Camelot 4000 in the works)

(also note: the Marvel rip-off of Watchmen, Squadron Supreme, was spearheaded by JMS)



Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
if that were the case why just use public domain characters? If the end result were truly a unique creation, how would copyright apply.

What difference does legality make to right and wrong?


Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
All of Marvels movies exploit Kirby to some extent

I agree. However, Kirby exploited himself when he played into Lee and Goodman's hands. Dan DeCarlo did the same at Archie.


Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
like a Batman movie exploits Frank Miller, (especially one called The Dark Knight).

Miller didn't do anything different with Batman other than make it a little more bloody. Miller rode on Batman's cape, not the other way around. It's kinda hard to make the argument that Moore owes anything to the Blue Beetle.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#597060 - 04/30/12 04:48 PM Re: Actually, no, it was Joe Simon [Re: Gerald]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 6915
Originally Posted By: Gerald
Moore creates very narrow parameters of what is okay and what isn't in literature, and these parameters convienently fit with what he and his favorite writers have done.

Let's say WB wants another Harry Potter series. They own HP outright, so it's within their legal rights to do so. Rowling says: Bad Idea, I won't be involved and you should forget it since the story is done. WB hires somebody else to write it. I'm sure you would have no problem with this.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#597061 - 04/30/12 06:27 PM Re: Actually, no, it was Joe Simon [Re: Lawson]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Lawson
If Warner Bros. announced CASABLANCA 2: PLAY IT AGAIN AGAIN, starring Seth Rogan and Lindsey Lohan, I would not dispute the studio's right to do so. But I wouldn't open my wallet for it, either.
What you missed the 1983 Casablanca TV series starring David Soul, (Yes that David Soul from Starsky and Hutch).

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084994/

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#597062 - 04/30/12 06:35 PM Re: Actually, no, it was Joe Simon [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery

Let's say WB wants another Harry Potter series. They own HP outright, so it's within their legal rights to do so. Rowling says: Bad Idea, I won't be involved and you should forget it since the story is done. WB hires somebody else to write it. I'm sure you would have no problem with this.
There are way too many problems with that hypothetical.

The situation here is whether Moore is being a bit hypocritical given his specific career history of exploiting the works of other writers himself. Had Rowling done anything in her career similar to Moore, and as frequently as Moore?

And again not saying it's right or wrong to have done so, just saying it creates some moral gray area to the question of Moore's position on DC exploiting his creations, when he's exploited the creations of other authors so often in his career.


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#597063 - 04/30/12 06:48 PM Re: Actually, no, it was Joe Simon [Re: Joe Lee]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Lawson
Twenty-five years have passed since WATCHMEN. The story ended. The creators moved on to other things. For DC to return to that well at this late date shows that it's as creatively exhausted as Moore likes to say it is.
I absolutely agree.

But couldn't something along the same lines be said of most DC and Marvel comics these days. How many comics are being published by either company that don't exploit the creations and concepts of authors and artists from decades past?

They were doing it long before Moore originally worked for DC. His outrage now is a little like Captain Renault in Casablanca, (see what I did there!), "I'm shocked, shocked to find that comic companies screwing me over here!"

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#597064 - 04/30/12 07:19 PM Re: Actually, no, it was Joe Simon [Re: Gerald]
Joe Lee Offline
Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
Originally Posted By: Gerald
Alan Moore keeps finding excuses for himself. He says that MOBY DICK never got a sequel, why should Watchmen? Let these self contained masterpieces stand on their own, dammit!


The Wind Whales of Ishmael
by Philip José Farmer
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/435294.Wind_Whales_Ishmael

Ahab's Wife
by Sena J. Naslund
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7742.Ahab_s_Wife_or_The_Star_Gazer

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#597065 - 04/30/12 07:46 PM Re: Actually, no, it was Joe Simon [Re: Joe Lee]
Alexander Ness Offline
Member

Registered: 09/17/03
Posts: 3692
Loc: Minnesota
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
Originally Posted By: Lawson
If Warner Bros. announced CASABLANCA 2: PLAY IT AGAIN AGAIN, starring Seth Rogan and Lindsey Lohan, I would not dispute the studio's right to do so. But I wouldn't open my wallet for it, either.
What you missed the 1983 Casablanca TV series starring David Soul, (Yes that David Soul from Starsky and Hutch).

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0084994/


Allan should thank Lord Jesus in heaven for missing that.

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#597066 - 04/30/12 09:04 PM Re: Actually, no, it was Joe Simon [Re: Lawson]
Gerald Offline
Member

Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1093
Originally Posted By: Lawson
For DC to return to that well at this late date shows that it's as creatively exhausted as Moore likes to say it is.


This is where I disagree with Moore. I don't believe that DC is creatively exhausted, it's that the market is made up of middle aged fan boys who mostly are only interested in the further adventures of Batman and X-Men. Just look at our own posts. We spend more time talking about and criticizing Marvel and DC superhero comics than we do Vertigo, and others.

When they put out new material like iZombie for example, it still doesn't sell as well as Fury of Firestorm, despite the former having better art and a brand new idea.
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"My head's lopsided *****!"-Red Gumby

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#597068 - 04/30/12 10:18 PM Re: Actually, no, it was Joe Simon [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 6915
Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
The situation here is whether Moore is being a bit hypocritical given his specific career history of exploiting the works of other writers himself.

Oh, so THAT'S the reason DC is doing this? Payback because Moore did WFH and stole literary characters? No, I don't think so.

Holy fuck, you are fucking hard-headed.


Originally Posted By: Joe Lee
it creates some moral gray area to the question of Moore's position on DC exploiting his creations, when he's exploited the creations of other authors so often in his career.

No, it does not. He created a thing that was complete in and of itself; and now they're trying to add more to something that was already complete.

I'm guessing you also don't see a problem with the Book of Mormon.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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