How many comics are being published by either company that weren't conceived as serials? How many comics are being published by either company that were created as one finite story?

Your belief is a non-sequitur. DC is a company, not a person, and doesn't create anything.

So you believe that DC IS creatively exhausted?

I'm sure that's NOT what Joe Lee is saying. Most of the people here aren't going to be buying Watchmen 2 for the obvious reasons. However, if you read Moore's overall criticisms of DC as a whole, the superhero genre, not to mention the entire American comic industry as well as the fanbase, he does come off as hypocritical.

I don't care if Moore is a hypocrite, or a thief or even a serial murderer. With Watchmen, he created a narrative that was intended to be one cohesive arc and that's it. If someone wants to steal the characters to use in their own story, fine. The problem is tacking on parts to a story that is already complete. Your argument that he somehow deserves it is absolute fucking rubbish.

Uh, that's not my argument.

I'm not saying that his past works justifies WATCHMEN 2.

I'm saying that his overall criticisms of the industry, the writers and artists within it, and the fanbase is hyporcritical considering his work and method.

He criticized Geoff Johns for using parts of an old GLC backup for Blackest Night. But then he goes on to say that he has no problem with writers adding to Swamp Thing or Hellblazer.

He criticizes older comic readers for buying superhero comics, based on nostalgia, calling it a "mental illness," but had not problems using that same nostalgia to appeal to that readership when writing The Killing Joke, Superman, Supreme, etc.

In regards to Watchmen 2, I agree with him that it shows a lack of integrity on DC's part considering the circumstances involved.


It seems like a case of commercial exploitation vs creative exploitation.

I think Moore's a great writer, but his romps through fan fiction can become tiresome, and too self indulgent for my taste. He complains about the comic industry and Hollywoods lack of new ideas, yet he's perfectly fine writing the further adventures of other people's characters.

Actually, on second thoughts, I should note that while there was no opening credits (just studio logos and the movie title), there is nevertheless a distinct main block of credits that are the equivalent of 'opening credits', where all the big name actors go etc. It's done against a background of close-ups of Avengers paraphernalia - its actually a pretty cool sequence. Then after that is the "mid-credits" teaser.

Then, we get the rest of the credits rolling, and that's where Kirby's credits go. Which is a bit shit, really.

It doesn't matter to Allen.

No one is saying Moore "deserves" to have his work and legacy treated as it is, but that statement would be easier to fight with. So that's what he hears. From him more often than not, it's straw men and ad hominem, yadda yadda.

All I've been trying to say is I think there are some serious moral questions regarding Moore's own work history, and he may not have the firm moral ground to stand on to complain about new Watchmen books. Is it the readers? I guess the sales figures will tell what they think.

Me, I'm just interested in discussing the topic, but to Allen this isn't a conversation, it's a debate, and he wants to win. To him, winning is getting the last word. He often brags about having won these exchanges at later dates, how he handed Erik Larsen, or that Green Lama dude his ass...

I probably won't read or buy the new Watchmen books, but I gotta say I'm surprised at all the surprised fans. They really didn't see this coming? I agree that Watchmen should be left alone, it was one of those things. Comic book sacred cows, for certain things in comics. Death being what it is in comics, Bucky was the standard by which we judged dead in comics, I remember asking about the great Superman publicity stunt, "Is he dead or Bucky dead?"

Absolutely.

See unlike you I really think DC IS creatively exhausted. Not that it has to be, just that it currently isn't all that creative. New character idea, Red Arrow? Marvel isn't much better Red Hulk and Red She-Hulk? Lets restart all the continuity... yeech

I just looked up iZombie, after reading your post above "When they put out new material like iZombie for example, it still doesn't sell as well as Fury of Firestorm, despite the former having better art and a brand new idea." I go to the comic shop at least twice a month, and don't think I ever saw or heard of that book, and I would have loved it. I'm a huge Allred fan, but apparently I don't read enough about what's coming out from DC. I sure did see a lot of publicity for the new 52 though. (Is that why I haven't seen any Madman issues lately, i figured it was because I had been going to the LCS on weekends). It's one thing to have to hunt down indy comics, but DC should be promoting these things better.

Going over to Amazon to see about any iZombie trades...

I'm not as familiar with Alan Moore's criticism of Geoff Johns.

However, I don't get the impression Moore is mad at Johns for using one or two elements from his old Green Lantern stories. I get the impression he's exasperated that Johns somehow has built an entire portion of his writing career out of appropriating a few backup stories Moore wrote 30 years ago.

And it really is stunning, when you consider it. Roy Thomas' stories provided the first half of Johns' career, and Moore's stories provided the second half.

At some point, it would be interesting to see if Johns is capable of creating characters and stories all by himself.