It sounds like spin to me. Because Dick Cheney thinks it's up to the states to decide on gay marriage, that must mean that that's typical conservative opinion, and that Obama leans right on the issue? The Republican Party, generally speaking, is against gay marriage completely, regardless of what states decide, which is why they push for the DOM act.





I've heard complaints like that from hardcore conservatives and liberals for every president. Bill Clinton was the best Republican president we had, George W. Bush spends like a liberal.

So is Obama a moderate, or conservative in your eyes?

Okay, yes. If you make stuff up that I didn't say and attribute it to me, then it becomes easy to call what I didn't say spin.

Bravo.

What I'm actually saying, however, is that Dick Cheney, who one would not usually associate with liberalism in any way, shape, or form, came out in favor of gay marriage in 2009. So clearly, supporting gay marriage doesn't serve as a miracle pill that turns you into a solid liberal, no matter what the rest of your policies are. And meanwhile, that "states rights" taint on Obama's endorsement is a pretty huge conservative canard.

And frankly, since Obama bravely sorta-but-not-really came out in favor of gay marriage after 51% of the country started saying they liked it in polls, I wouldn't call it conservative, liberal, or any other term that connotes ideals or principles. I would call it political opportunism.



George W. Bush's big spending sinkholes went to tax cuts, the military, and giveaways to pharmaceutical companies and investment banks.

Seriously, man. You have a weird fuckin' definition of "liberal."



I would call his policies those of a right-leaning centrist. I would call him someone whose actions are dictated not by ideals, but by political expediency.

Which I never said or implied.


Both liberals and conservatives use each the same tactics for different issues when it suits them. Obama and Barney Frank see it as a way to get gay marraige passed, one state at a time.

I wouldn't consider conservatives, who are pushing for a DOM amendment to overturn gay marriage in some states, as all of a sudden leaning to the left on the issue.




He repealed DADT prior to this in 2010 I believe so there's that too.
George W. Bush's big spending sinkholes went to tax cuts, the military, and giveaways to pharmaceutical companies and investment banks.


Those are lines I've heard from hardcore liberals and conservatives. I've heard Bush called a Republican but not a conservative for his spending, his stance on immigration and for the bailouts. I'm sure you know why Bill Clinton was called the best Republican president. The arguments I've heard for this are from Christopher Hitchens and Michael Moore.

Oh, I thought these were your reasons why you think Obama is a liberal. Can you let me know ahead of time how far these goalposts are gonna move?



The "tactic" to which you're referring is a basic tenet of conservatism; that local government should decide its own laws, even (or especially) when it comes to civil rights.

And yes, you're right; it's used by both parties. A lot.



After appointing a Chief of Staff who helped put DADT into law in the first place. He's for gay rights when it'll get him votes, and against it when it'll get him votes. Again: political expediency does not equal liberalism.



Well, perhaps instead of forming your opinions based on lines you've heard, you should try actually examining our politicians' actions and policies.

Yes, reasons. Gay marriage, healthcare reform, and his stance on enforceing federal drug laws. Then there's also gay rights in general, women's rights, regulations on pollution, support for gun control, and support for hate crime laws.

Citing Dick Cheney supporting states rights of gay marriage, and Romney's former position on healthcahre reform does not make Obama right leaning, if the conservaitve Republican establishment is against these things.



Tactics. Just like conservatives are agaisnt big govermnet except when they're not.



Thanks for the advice but I was referring to your assertion that I believe W. was a liberal. I've the reasonsings by both sides.

So, reasons that I already addressed, which you then repeated unchanged?

This is a productive conversation.



Then there was that time he flapped his arms and flew to the moon.

Wait, sorry… reading your post, I assumed we were allowed to make stuff up. But in reality…

Regulations on pollution

Support for gun control

But no, Obama is not overtly hostile to women or minorities.

So love me, love me, love me… I’m a liberal.



Yeah, it wasn’t just Mitt Romney’s position. It was the entire Republican establishment’s position, until Obama proposed it. Then they hated it.

And of course, as already stated, "civil rights should be decided on a state level" is a major tenet of conservative philosophy.



Republicans are frequently hypocritical, therefore, Obama is a liberal.

Shit, can’t argue with that logic.

That's not what I'm saying at all. Republicans use "big government" tactics to push conservative goals while ignoring states rights in certain cases. In my opinion that does not mean those conservative Republicans are leaning to the left on the issue because of their methods.

Kind of like how the Bush administration increased the size of the federal government contrary conservatives beliefs like Reagans, "government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem" line. Because individual states have passed gay marriage, conservative politicians want the federal government to step in. Are they leaning to the left of the issue here as well?

So because conservatives are now trying to add a federal law to stop states from passing gay marriage, politicians like Barney Frank are trumpeting states rights on the issue. If there's a federal law that goes against liberal beliefs, liberals will support states rights. If there's a state law that goes against conservative beliefs, conservatives will try to stop it using federal law.

Yeah, except no. Have you seen the size of Reagan's military? Modern Republicans, Reagan included, have never had a problem with big government, just social programs. "Big government" is the handy euphemism they use, because "fuck poor people" doesn't play too well in a sound bite.

Slogans aren't policies. If they were, we'd never have a bad President.



Okay, I see the problem. You're conflating "Democrat" with "liberal." Therefore, anything the Democrats do is, in your eyes, liberal by definition.

Problem is, they're two separate things. They occasionally overlap, but only when it's super convenient for the Democrats. Which, in the case of Obama, is exceptionally rarely.