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#598791 - 06/20/12 10:38 PM BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1
Ted Kilvington Offline
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"You never struck me as an idealist, Eddie."

To see who utters that line, read the book or follow the link to Poplitiko.com.
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#598793 - 06/20/12 10:46 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Ted Kilvington]
Alexander Ness Offline
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Who Watches Before the Watchmen?

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#598797 - 06/20/12 11:59 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Alexander Ness]
Gerald Offline
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I checked a preview:

Click to reveal..
After tackling Eddie Blake in a friendly game of touch football, JFK asks, "you okay Eddie?"

"Me," questions Blake, "What about you? Taking out the president, that's ALL I need on my resume."


Reminds me of Attack of the Clones. When young Obi Wan says "Anakin you'll be the death of me."

Kinda eye rolling. The preview gets a little more interesting though.


Edited by Gerald (06/21/12 12:03 AM)
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#598802 - 06/21/12 10:03 AM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Gerald]
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I saw the online preview with President Kennedy -- who suffered crippling back problems and barely could move some days -- tackling superhero Eddie Blake in a game of football.

So.

Yeah,

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#598804 - 06/21/12 10:20 AM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Lawson]
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He was probably busy standing in for Clark Kent to help his buddy Superman.
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#598807 - 06/21/12 10:52 AM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Gerald]
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Wow, that exchange has so much resonance once you've read Watchmen.
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#598808 - 06/21/12 11:37 AM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Gerald]
MBunge Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gerald
I checked a preview:

Click to reveal..
After tackling Eddie Blake in a friendly game of touch football, JFK asks, "you okay Eddie?"

"Me," questions Blake, "What about you? Taking out the president, that's ALL I need on my resume."


Reminds me of Attack of the Clones. When young Obi Wan says "Anakin you'll be the death of me."

Kinda eye rolling. The preview gets a little more interesting though.


Having read the issue, that analogy fails because...

Click to reveal..
the story has the Comedian busting up a supposed drug ring run by Moloch the Mystic at the same time Kennedy was killed.


Yeah, that's right. It took them three whole issues into this cash grab to specifically ignore if not out right retcon a clear allusion in the original work.

My only concern with this project is whether it would be any good. Not "as good as WATCHMEN" but just entertaining comics. They're one out of three on that score so far and the two misses are massive whiffs.

Mike

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#598809 - 06/21/12 11:42 AM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: MBunge]
Ted Kilvington Offline
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Mike, in your opinion which one was entertaining and which two were whiffs?
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#598812 - 06/21/12 12:30 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Ted Kilvington]
MBunge Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ted Kilvington
Mike, in your opinion which one was entertaining and which two were whiffs?


Well, they've all been fairly well-crafted, so that's not what I mean.

But NITE OWL #1 cost me 4 bucks for nothing but introductory vignettes when the only reason I, or most anyone else, is buying the book is because we already know who these characters are.

COMEDIAN #1 is written like they forgot the reference made to the Kennedy assasination in WATCHMEN. The character of Eddie Blake is also incredibly passive for most of the book, in both word and deed, and the stuff with the Kennedys at the beginning was just bizarre.

SILK SPECTRE #1, on the other hand, was about a young girl trying to cope with the demanding and weird life her mother is pusing her into and I loved the manga-type touches of the art that reflected the extremes of teenage emotion. The arc of the first issue even neatly coincided with the zeitgeist of the era, as Laurie takes off on her own just as the country is shaking off so many of its old traditions and standards. This could have been the first issue of an Elseworlds limited series about the Golden Age Black Canary and her Silver Age daughter and I'd be just as interested in getting the 2nd issue.

Mike

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#598813 - 06/21/12 12:32 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Ted Kilvington]
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Quote:
Wow, that exchange has so much resonance once you've read Watchmen.


It would have worked better if it was FDR instead of JFK. Did comics *ever* draw FDR in a wheelchair?
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#598816 - 06/21/12 12:50 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: MBunge]
Joe Lee Offline
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Originally Posted By: MBunge
COMEDIAN #1 is written like they forgot the reference made to the Kennedy assasination in WATCHMEN. The character of Eddie Blake is also incredibly passive for most of the book, in both word and deed, and the stuff with the Kennedys at the beginning was just bizarre.
Yeah, the assassination stuff bugged me too. And I totally agree with you here about Blake, especially. First issue that didn't work for me though.

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#598823 - 06/21/12 02:05 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Joe Lee]
Gerald Offline
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I saw another preview with The Comedian saying "No" when hearing about the news. For following Watchmen so closely it's pretty much a different character, at least IMO.

The Comedian was supposed to be an aggressive right wing alpha male. Can't see him pallying around with the Kennedys. Especially since he was friends with Nixon.

35 issues just to lead up to 12 issue Watchmen...smh.
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#598826 - 06/21/12 02:28 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Gerald]
Ted Kilvington Offline
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#598830 - 06/21/12 02:49 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: MBunge]
Lawson Online   content
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Originally Posted By: MBunge
SILK SPECTRE #1, on the other hand, was about a young girl trying to cope with the demanding and weird life her mother is pusing her into and I loved the manga-type touches of the art that reflected the extremes of teenage emotion. The arc of the first issue even neatly coincided with the zeitgeist of the era, as Laurie takes off on her own just as the country is shaking off so many of its old traditions and standards. This could have been the first issue of an Elseworlds limited series about the Golden Age Black Canary and her Silver Age daughter and I'd be just as interested in getting the 2nd issue.


Someone online said the Silk Spectre mini-series would have made a great Black Canary: Year One project. As it stands, it has nothing to do with WATCHMEN or any of those characters other than it invokes their names.

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#598832 - 06/21/12 03:03 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Lawson]
Ted Kilvington Offline
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It appears to me that the original series implied that the Comedian killed Woodward & Bernstein, and that he was just joking about killing JFK.
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#598842 - 06/21/12 03:24 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: MBunge]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Originally Posted By: MBunge
I loved the manga-type touches of the art that reflected the extremes of teenage emotion.

Highly influenced by Jennie Breeden.
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#598845 - 06/21/12 03:36 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Joe Lee Offline
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Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery

Highly influenced by Jennie Breeden.
So being "highly influenced" is that anything like, let's see how did you define an artist with an "obvious influence," wasn't it, a sleazebag, copying elements with no conscience, from other artists?

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#598847 - 06/21/12 03:38 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Joe Lee]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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And the rest came from copying Arthur Adams.
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#598849 - 06/21/12 03:46 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Ted Kilvington]
MBunge Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ted Kilvington
It appears to me that the original series implied that the Comedian killed Woodward & Bernstein, and that he was just joking about killing JFK.


There's also a reference in the book about the Comedian being IN DALLAS the day JFK was shot, supposedly "minding" Nixon.

Mike

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#598852 - 06/21/12 04:07 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: MBunge]
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Yeah, in a couple of ways, WATCHMEN strongly suggested that the Comedian shot JFK. No question.

Brian Azzar-whatziz may want to read WATCHMEN one day. It's a great comic.

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#598853 - 06/21/12 04:16 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Lawson]
MBunge Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lawson
Brian Azzar-whatziz may want to read WATCHMEN one day. It's a great comic.


I have to assume that they're going to explain/justify this discrepancy in some way, perhaps as part of some overall conspiracy. I mean, I'm not somebody who re-reads WATCHMEN all the time but even I immediately noticed the apparent problem.

Mike

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#598854 - 06/21/12 04:21 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: MBunge]
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Everything that Brian Azzar-whatziz writes sounds the same to me. He's only got one tone, one plotline and one style of dialogue. I followed his 100 BULLETS series at DC/Vertigo for the longest time -- in large part because I liked the art -- but I eventually lost interest and quit. His other work that I've sampled, it's pretty much just like 100 BULLETS, whether it's a Western or a WATCHMEN sequel.

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#598855 - 06/21/12 04:33 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Lawson]
Joe Lee Offline
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The latest Godzilla comic looks like it's being drawn by Eduardo Risso, the artist from 100 Bullets. But it's someone I hadn't heard of before, Simon Gane. But seriously you'd swear it was Eduardo Risso.

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#598857 - 06/21/12 05:05 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Lawson]
Gerald Offline
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The BEFORE WATCHMEN writers are just doing a typical prequel story, yet it contradicts the tone, story and purpose of the original.

It's about deconstructing heroes. BEFORE WATCHMEN seems to play into building them up. Moore was showing how fighting crime in tights would attract dysfunctional people. Cooke seems to be turning them into the, now typical, flawed but heroic type.

Azzarello turns a jingoist brute into a wide eyed optimist when in front of "real crimefighters" like John and Robert Kennedy.

Not to mention, the dialogue was so much better in Watchmen because they talked more like real people. Here they talk like movie cliches.

i have to laugh at Jim Lee saying that BW could equal or surpass the original. Moore utilized innovative things like supplemental prose pieces, visual panel transitions, repeated symbolism. Even the covers were unique like extrme close ups fcusing on something OTHER than the characters.
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#598861 - 06/21/12 08:59 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Ted Kilvington]
MBunge Offline
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I've bopped around and checked out some reviews and I'm amazed at...

1. The number of reviewers who either don't notice the JFK ret-con or don't care.

2. A general attitude that Brian Azzarello could take a steaming dump, slap a cardstock cover on it and it would still be considered one of the best comics out that week. I mean, I didn't like NITE OWL #1 because of the basic concept of the issue. COMEDIAN #1, though, has some really big flaws in both structure and characterization.

Mike

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#598864 - 06/21/12 10:34 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: MBunge]
ChrisW Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Robert Crumb
It's just lines on paper, folks.
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#598865 - 06/22/12 01:38 AM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: MBunge]
Charles Reece Online   crying
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I imagine what he's setting up is to show how devious the Comedian is, befriending JFK, only to shoot him in the head later on. That's why the shit has such resonance if you've read Watchmen.
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#598866 - 06/22/12 03:59 AM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Charles Reece]
Gerald Offline
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I'm going to stop checking out the previews.
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#598867 - 06/22/12 05:45 AM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: ChrisW]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Robert Crumb
It's just lines on paper, folks.

Which Crumb traded for a house in southern France.
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#598868 - 06/22/12 06:53 AM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Allen Montgomery]
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He stopped doing the lines on paper so he could get a house?
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#598871 - 06/22/12 10:13 AM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Charles Reece]
MBunge Offline
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Originally Posted By: Charles Reece
I imagine what he's setting up is to show how devious the Comedian is, befriending JFK, only to shoot him in the head later on. That's why the shit has such resonance if you've read Watchmen.


Well, considering that he's somewhere else when JFK gets shot, that means The Comedian would have to be in two different places...HOLY CRAP! The Comedian is Doctor Mahanttan? That's resonant, baby.

Mike

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#598873 - 06/22/12 11:41 AM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: MBunge]
Joe Lee Offline
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Originally Posted By: Charles Reece
I imagine what he's setting up is to show how devious the Comedian is, befriending JFK, only to shoot him in the head later on. That's why the shit has such resonance if you've read Watchmen.


I read it more as the writer was trying to add a deeper meaning to the original cocktail party scene. Where Blake is just making a joke about shooting JFK in the head, what if...

1. Blake and JFK were friends the scene would show the reader how Blake had become so heartless he could joke about assassinating a friend?

And 2. Blake would be making a literal reference to the fact he really didn't want people to know about the heartfelt emotional moment he shared with Moloch, when JFK was shot. All while obnoxious party people where thinking he was just making a shamelessly wicked party joke.

Not only showing the reader the emotional walls that Blake has built up, but showing he has, as a character at least on some level, an awareness of them, which to him would be the Comedian's real joke?


Edited by Joe Lee (06/22/12 12:16 PM)

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#598875 - 06/22/12 12:32 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: MBunge]
Charles Reece Online   crying
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Originally Posted By: MBunge
Originally Posted By: Charles Reece
I imagine what he's setting up is to show how devious the Comedian is, befriending JFK, only to shoot him in the head later on. That's why the shit has such resonance if you've read Watchmen.


Well, considering that he's somewhere else when JFK gets shot, that means The Comedian would have to be in two different places...HOLY CRAP! The Comedian is Doctor Mahanttan? That's resonant, baby.


He was in Dallas and the book implies his involvement while the movie shows it. That's the way I remember it, at least. I'd have to go back to the book to make sure, though.
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#598876 - 06/22/12 12:39 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Charles Reece]
Charles Reece Online   crying
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Here we go:

Quote:
In 1963 Blake was in Dallas, Texas, nominally as Nixon's bodyguard, on the day that John F. Kennedy was shot; it is also implied, although vaguely, that Blake either was the actual assassin or knew of the assassin's plot beforehand.


and

Quote:
Implied actions by the Comedian in the graphic novel are explicit in the film adaptation. Examples include the Kennedy assassination and the assassination of Woodward and Bernstein.


Here's the Watchmen Wiki for JFK.
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#598878 - 06/22/12 12:53 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Charles Reece]
Ted Kilvington Offline
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In the final issue Ozymandias told Rorschach and Nite Owl that Blake was Nixon's bodyguard in Dallas. So all that was canon was that Ozymandias said that, not that it actually happened that way. Future issues may or may not show either why Ozymandias gave information that was factually incorrect or that Before Watchmen is not just adding to canon, but changing it.

BTW, it is well documented in our world that Nixon was in New York City when JFK was shot.
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#598880 - 06/22/12 01:00 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Charles Reece]
MBunge Offline
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Originally Posted By: Charles Reece
Originally Posted By: MBunge
Originally Posted By: Charles Reece
I imagine what he's setting up is to show how devious the Comedian is, befriending JFK, only to shoot him in the head later on. That's why the shit has such resonance if you've read Watchmen.


Well, considering that he's somewhere else when JFK gets shot, that means The Comedian would have to be in two different places...HOLY CRAP! The Comedian is Doctor Mahanttan? That's resonant, baby.


He was in Dallas and the book implies his involvement while the movie shows it. That's the way I remember it, at least. I'd have to go back to the book to make sure, though.


Hence my lame joke about him being in two places at once because COMEDIAN #1 shows him NOT being in Dallas and NOT shooting JFK.

Mike

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#598881 - 06/22/12 01:02 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Ted Kilvington]
MBunge Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ted Kilvington
Future issues may or may not show either why Ozymandias gave information that was factually incorrect or that Before Watchmen is not just adding to canon, but changing it.


I may be wrong, but I think it was generally understood that Comedian killing JFK was strongly implied by the original comic. That's why they actually showed it in the film. If you're going to either add to or change that implication, I'd submit that COMEDIAN #1 was about the most ass way possible to do it.

Mike

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#598882 - 06/22/12 01:05 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: MBunge]
Charles Reece Online   crying
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I was mixed up on what we were talking about. I wasn't aware that the new book actually showed the Comedian during the assassination and post-assassination, either. Anyway, these guys talk about it:

Quote:
Chad Nevett: Well, if there’s an issue that will get Watchmen purists pissed off, I can’t think of a better one since Brian Azzarello’s interpretation of the Comedian seems to fly in the face of what we learned of him in the original series, especially regarding the assassination of JFK. In Watchmen, it was heavily implied that the Comedian had SOMETHING to do with it and, here, he’s actively placed away from Kennedy to prevent him from possibly saving a man that he loves respects and admires. Yet, oddly, besides that factual difference, I don’t think Azzarello’s take on the character is at odds with Moore’s, at least not ideologically. Of course the Comedian would be buddy buddies with the Kennedys! They’re fun-loving, ‘play hard’ type of guys, the exact sort that Edward Blake would be drawn to. There might even be something there about Blake’s cynicism and world views. He was always a bit of a bastard, but, when he was with the Minutemen, there wasn’t necessarily a suggestion of the crazed, dark cynicism he displays later in his life. Like America, the death of JFK could have really affected him and helped make him into the guy we saw in Vietnam. In that way, it seemed oddly appropriate — no less so than him being in on the assassination of Kennedy, merely something that produces a different effect, showing the character in a slightly different light. Was he always like that or were there events that helped make him like that? Azzarello clearly chooses the latter…

Brian Cronin: I saw it a bit differently in that I think that Blake was always a scumbag. I don’t think 1940s Blake is any different than 1960s Blake who is nothing different from 1980s Blake. All that has changed are his circumstances. Here, he allows himself to see the Kennedys and Camelot as his way out, a way to get past his crazed, dark cynicism. Only, of course, it ends tragically and only re-confirms what he always knows about both the world and himself. For instance, before Kenendy is even killed, Blake is more than willing to assassinate Marilyn Monroe and not even blink any eye about it. Heck, he takes his time with her after he does it! This is not some guy who was changed by Camelot – he only wishes he could be. But he can’t, because deep down, he knows that he’s the guy you keep around because he’ll always be ready to silence the “drugged-out blonde bitch” or whatever else that needs to be done and no one else will do. Look at his reaction to Kennedy getting assassinated. Is he upset? Sure, but look how quickly he adjusts. He just calmly notes the angle. “Ohhhh, okay, so they drew me out here so they could kill Kennedy without me getting in the way. Duly noted.”
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#598883 - 06/22/12 01:20 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Charles Reece]
MBunge Offline
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Originally Posted By: Charles Reece
I was mixed up on what we were talking about. I wasn't aware that the new book actually showed the Comedian during the assassination and post-assassination, either. Anyway, these guys talk about it:


I read those guys and, holy crap, talk about reading stuff into a piece of work. "(H)e allows himself to see the Kennedys and Camelot as his way out, a way to get past his crazed, dark cynicism"? "He was always a bit of a bastard, but, when he was with the Minutemen, there wasn’t necessarily a suggestion of the crazed, dark cynicism he displays later in his life."

Mike

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#598885 - 06/22/12 03:35 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: ChrisW]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Originally Posted By: ChrisW
He stopped doing the lines on paper so he could get a house?

Holy fucking hell, you are beyond stupid.

If you really are that unaware, Robert Crumb traded a briefcase full of sketch books for a house in southern France. So quoting Crumb to try and make the point that "lines on paper" don't have power or importance is ironic to the extreme.
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#598892 - 06/22/12 07:04 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Allen Montgomery]
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That explains why you're so loony.
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#598898 - 06/22/12 10:08 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: ChrisW]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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There's that irony thing again.
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#598910 - 06/23/12 11:22 AM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Ted Kilvington Offline
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Registered: 05/10/99
Posts: 1080
Loc: Mason, MI, USA
I think I know the real reason Jackie had the Comedian kill Marilyn:


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Ted J. Kilvington, Jr.

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"I still have that comic, only now it's in liquid form!"

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#598921 - 06/23/12 06:17 PM Re: BEFORE WATCHMEN: COMEDIAN #1 [Re: Ted Kilvington]
Gerald Offline
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Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1093
That would be a good twist. It turns out it was bizarro jackie wearing a regular Jackie mask and affecting a regular form of speech.

Alan Moore did a 1963 story where the Comedian-esque Ultimate Super Agent impersonates JFK in Dallas to flush out the assassin. A good what if. In that same story it was also implied that Jackie had feelings for the Comedian analog.
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"My head's lopsided *****!"-Red Gumby

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