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#598781 - 06/20/12 06:49 PM
Re: Paul Pope, Jim Steranko join BEFORE WATCHMEN
[Re: Lawson]
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Member
Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
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The publishers of Superman comic books, National Periodical Publications [later DC Comics], killed my days, murdered my nights, choked my happiness, strangled my career. I consider National's executives economic murderers, money-mad monsters. I, Jerry Siegel, the co-originator of Superman, put a curse of the Superman movie! I, Christopher Woerner, love the way he sounds like a comic book supervillain in that last sentence.
Edited by ChrisW (06/20/12 06:50 PM) Edit Reason: It was just one of those things.
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If This Be... PayPal!!!"I think ChrisW is the funniest man in entertainment still alive..." -- the perceptive Tom Spurgeon
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#598782 - 06/20/12 06:52 PM
Re: Paul Pope, Jim Steranko join BEFORE WATCHMEN
[Re: Gerald]
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Member
Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 6909
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People have known for years that many of the creators from DC got screwed, knew that Alan Moore got screwed, but still bought DC Comics. And now we have an answer: ZCult-FM
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"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit. If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator." Bob Kane
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#598789 - 06/20/12 08:47 PM
Re: Paul Pope, Jim Steranko join BEFORE WATCHMEN
[Re: Allen Montgomery]
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Member
Registered: 05/10/99
Posts: 1080
Loc: Mason, MI, USA
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Alan Moore had a story to tell, he could have told it with his own characters and released it as a creator-owned work through Eclipse, First, Renegade, or any number of other publishers. But he chose to sell it to DC anyway, with the standard reversion clause that the rights would revert to him if and only if the work stopped generating revenue. Revenue that he himself, as creator, would continue to share.
If he was screwed it was by himself, for whoring out his talent. And now we're supposed to feel sorry for him?!?!? Fanboy, please.
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Ted J. Kilvington, Jr.
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"I still have that comic, only now it's in liquid form!"
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#598790 - 06/20/12 09:20 PM
Re: Paul Pope, Jim Steranko join BEFORE WATCHMEN
[Re: Ted Kilvington]
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Member
Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 6909
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You're talking about things in very distant hindsight.
And the feeling sorry is left for DC Comics, which apparently wants nothing new to offer.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit. If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator." Bob Kane
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#598792 - 06/20/12 10:45 PM
Re: Paul Pope, Jim Steranko join BEFORE WATCHMEN
[Re: Allen Montgomery]
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Member
Registered: 05/10/99
Posts: 1080
Loc: Mason, MI, USA
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I wouldn't say nothing new comes from Marvel or DC, just not nearly enough. 50-50 would be a good ratio of new to familiar, instead of the 95-5 we currently get from the big two. Before Watchmen is at least less used up than the ten Batman books or 14 X-Men books we get every month.
_________________________
Ted J. Kilvington, Jr.
*****
"I still have that comic, only now it's in liquid form!"
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#598810 - 06/21/12 12:02 PM
Re: Paul Pope, Jim Steranko join BEFORE WATCHMEN
[Re: Gerald]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
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Interesting point.
However, it's not an apples-to-apples comparison. Yes, DC and Marvel fucked over many of their original creators. Yes, any of us who have paid money to DC and Marvel -- including me -- have supported these corporate creeps, and we probably should not. But I don't think Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster expected Superman to be theirs forever; nor did Jack Kirby expect the Fantastic Four or the Incredible Hulk to end their adventures when he moved along. WATCHMEN, as Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons produced it, was a different kind of comic. Or so they, and most of us, were led to believe in the 1980s, in part based on DC's own comments proclaiming creators' rights. WATCHMEN was supposed to be DC finally doing right by creators. That gives the corporate bastardization, over Moore's angry objections, a special Screw You quality.
Also, creatively, BEFORE WATCHMEN just seems worse than a thousand Superman comics projects. Siegel and Shuster hoped Superman would appear everywhere. They were delighted to have this open-ended serial adventure, and sure enough, that's what it turned out to be. Whereas Moore and Gibbons thought they were telling a story with a beginning, a middle and an end, and after that, it would stand alone, untouched. I think you're making an awfully subtle distinction. And I honestly can't see how expectations of ownership enter into it. The reason Moore is in the position he's in is because he signed a contract that had the "as long as it stays in print DC keeps the thing," clause. A far less dirty trick than most we could site, and certainly not as shady as Marvel's back of the check fine print crap. Or Marvel/Disney's recent over-reaching counter suit against Gary Friedrich, designed purely to intimidate the entire creative community in the comics industry. Probably the biggest is that 1) we weren't as aware of it back then as we are now, because we're older, access to the interent, etc. Oh no, I get that, I'm talking about now, how can someone make the decision to shun certain artists now, just for Before Watchemn, despite our knowledge that others are more deserving of a good ol' shunning? It just seems unfairly arbitrary to me. Or as you put it much better... ...it's easy to be against something when you don't have much interest in it in the first place.
I don't see how it's much different though. Siegel & Shuster signed a bad deal not knowing fully the success of their work. Same with Alan Moore.
There's some small differences because situations are rarely ever the exact same. But if it's about supporting the artists and writers over the corporation, why split hairs?
People have known for years that many of the creators from DC got screwed, knew that Alan Moore got screwed, but still bought DC Comics. Exactly. Why now, is all I'm asking. And why just the help? As far as I'm concerned the movie adaptations of The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen was as bad or worse crime than Before Watchmen. And why shun the artists and writers working on Before Watchmen, if anyone wants to protest Before Watchmen, shun DC. I mean if you are going to shun anything, wouldn't that at least be more fair? DC is the entity publishing the thing. But I agree with Gerald, I think it's because it's the easier choice. One comic shop owner I know, he won't sell Ghost Rider books unless you special order them. Because of the how Marvel/Disney handled the whole Gary Friederich suit and counter suit. What does that actually accomplish? It's Marvel that you want to protest, if any given GR book gets canceled it won't have any effect on them at all.
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#598815 - 06/21/12 12:44 PM
Re: Paul Pope, Jim Steranko join BEFORE WATCHMEN
[Re: Joe Lee]
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Member
Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 6909
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As far as I'm concerned the movie adaptations of The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen was as bad or worse crime than Before Watchmen. Moore was actively involved in the negotiation of optioning LoEG into the LXG movie. And why shun the artists and writers working on Before Watchmen Look up the word "scab" as it relates to labor. That's not exactly what this is, as there was no organized strike of this project, but that's a similar idea. if anyone wants to protest Before Watchmen, shun DC. I mean if you are going to shun anything, wouldn't that at least be more fair? Oh, indeed. It's Marvel that you want to protest, if any given GR book gets canceled it won't have any effect on them at all. Or Nic Cage movies, since he could have fixed the whole situation with just the loose cash in his wallet.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit. If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator." Bob Kane
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#598817 - 06/21/12 12:54 PM
Re: Paul Pope, Jim Steranko join BEFORE WATCHMEN
[Re: Allen Montgomery]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
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Moore was actively involved in the negotiation of optioning LoEG into the LXG movie.
Was he responsible for the final product? That's the crime I'm talking about.
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#598818 - 06/21/12 01:02 PM
Re: Paul Pope, Jim Steranko join BEFORE WATCHMEN
[Re: Allen Montgomery]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
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Look up the word "scab" as it relates to labor. That's not exactly what this is, as there was no organized strike of this project, but that's a similar idea. My point is that anyone who is actively shunning the "scabs" while not actively shunning DC comics, seems to me to be taking the easy choice, making a pretty empty gesture and being a bit unfair or hypocritical. I'm just saying you can't decide to shun the workers and NOT shun DC too. But if you choose to shun DC AND anyone working on Before Watchmen too, it becomes a slippery slope argument, because then shouldn't it follow you should shun anyone currently working for DC comics? Aren't they complicit, how are they NOT "scabs" too? Isn't the marketing department promoting the thing? And then it would naturally follow that you should shun anyone who ever worked for DC comics that never got screwed or never fought for things to change? But how do you know who to fairly shun at that point? Maybe some workers attempted to improve things behind the scenes? The only sure thing is DC as a corporation, decided to publish BW, so shun DC. And if you shun DC shouldn't you shun Marvel too, they are arguably no better. And therefore anyone who works there too, etc...
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