Len Wein says he and the other scabs wouldn't have been forced to write and draw BEFORE WATCHMEN sequels if Alan Moore had done the proper thing and written his own official sequel when DC Comics told him to, goddamn it.

“I think after 25 years,” said Wein, “some of the weight of Alan’s objections have lost weight. All of what we are doing we have offered him, and all we are doing he has turned down. We spent a quarter of a century offering him opportunities to do things with these characters, and he kept turning them down.”

wow, that's obnoxious.

Yeah Alan Moore thinks DC should move on and do more innovative stuff, like he is doing with his sixth League of Extraordinary Gentleman book where once again Moore takes a beloved children's character and buggers him.

Wow.

Honestly, it's like DC Comics is bound and determined for this whole project to gel into one epic cautionary tale for future cartoonists.

Hey, it's this again. Repeated once more, totally unchanged, as if it hasn't already been brought up and shot down like, eight times.

How 'bout that.

I like Ted, but yeah, I'm through responding to that excuse.

Yeah, it's a shame that Ted can't see how crummy it is that a fellow creator would use corporate speak to justify going against the wishes of a former pal.

Len Wein was an editor and writer at DC and Marvel 40 years ago, back when nobody disputed management's right to screw creators on everything. You did your work-for-hire and you shut up.

By the time Alan Moore and others appeared in the 1980s to insist on some measure of creator rights, Wein already was a mossy old man by comparison. Now, a quarter-century later, he's a fossil who truly doesn't understand what all the fuss is about. Alan Moore just wrote some stupid funnybooks for DC, damnit! It's just like Batman or the Flash! If DC wants to publish more of them, DC can publish more of them! Writers are monkeys! Dance for the organ grinder, monkey!

At least its given me a good laugh thinking about terms of those 25 years of "opportunities" that DC offered Sir Alan.

Here's a starter for 10: I bet they didn't include offering Alan ownership rights on the characters he created.

Another opportunity DC didn't offer: Leave the story the fuck alone because he wrote it and it's finished now.

What I can't see is how there is any moral ground to consider Moore's wishes. He never cared about other creator's wishes, so what difference does it make whether Wein or any other creator uses a creator's rights or corporate speak argument to criticize Moore.

But hey, keep talking about how much of a victim Alan Moore is, since you seem to be doing such a great job convincing yourselves of it.

Poor Ted!

Captain Nemo is forever ruined for him.

Putting aside the question of Alan Moore's ethics, because Ted won't ever be satisfied on that score, it's depressing that Len Wein's defense of this creatively bankrupt turd is to insist that SOMEONE had to make more WATCHMEN comics, and if it wasn't going to be Moore, it may as well have been him, Jim Lee and Darwyn Cooke.

No.

The flaw in that premise is, we didn't need more WATCHMEN comics.

Lawson, you have written endless rants against "anal-rape" of all-ages comic characters, so please reconcile your feelings about that with your defense of the writer that had Kid Marvelman/Kid Miracleman, Batgirl, and the Invisible Man forcibly buggered.

That is correct. This is a cash-grab, as are 90% (roughly) of all corporate comics. My question is whether this is a better alternative to whatever other corporate cash-grab DC could have concocted. The jury is still out on that.

Holy cow, seriously, Ted?

So I have to think A KILLING JOKE was a great comic in order to roll my eyes at DC cranking out a bunch of shameless WATCHMEN sequels? What the hell does one have to do with the other?

For what it's worth, I'm not a fan of A KILLING JOKE, though Brian Bolland's art was lovely. I've read that Moore himself has grown dissatisfied with A KILLING JOKE, in large part because of its treatment of Barbara Gordon.

WATCHMEN was a stand-alone work -- a completed story -- widely praised as one of the best comics ever. That's not true of most of the Batman and X-Men comics on the shelves. Yes, it's sad to see Marvel crank out a 10th monthly AVENGERS title. But if you don't see the difference between that and a WATCHMEN sequel, then you're beyond my ability to explain it to you.

Maybe you should try reading the thousand-odd previous threads about it. Start with this one, where your exact complaint was brought up and addressed a little over two weeks ago.

Or... y'know. Keep repeating "BUT HE USES OTHER PEOPLE'S CHARACTERS" over and over and over again. That sounds like more fun. Easier, too.

No, the ethics of one don't correspond to the other, but you were the one making the "Capt. Nemo" joke. So do I have to care about Nemo to criticize Moore?

BEFORE WATCHMEN ISN'T A SHAMELESS PIECE OF CORPORATE HACKERY BECAUSE ALAN MOORE USED THE INVISIBLE MAN IN ONE OF HIS COMIC BOOKS, AND ANYWAY, THE DUDE IS FREAKY TO LOOK AT!!!

If you don't care about the century-old characters Moore appropriated for his LEAGUE OF EXTRAORDINARY GENTLEMEN comics, then no, I don't understand what you're carrying on about.

I loved WATCHMEN. I thought it was a great comic. So I'm offended that DC is trying to milk it for more money over its creators' objections (and Dave Gibbons is giving, at best, his tepid support, and let's not pretend otherwise).

I know why I care. I've no idea why you do.

You were the one trumpeting Moore as being a creative genius, when in fact he is one of the most derivative and destructive writers (albeit probably the most talented) to have ever worked in the medium. I'm sorry that you have been blinded by his talent to see that. But keep bitching about poor Moore, you seem good at it.

Ted. Let's assume that for sake of argument that DC had a perfectly legitimate right to make a "cash grab". (They do legally own the characters, after all.)

Even making that assumption:-
1/ Don't you think Len Wein's reported remarks are still a bit crass?? ( I'd have more respect for some one at DC just saying "we decided we could milk the Watchman cash cow even harder, and Alan Moore's got no say in the matter".)

2/ Is what DC has done an intelligent commercial move? To me it looks like that they their action may well undermine the "premium Watchmen brand". (Personally I think they would have done better to hand project in entirety to an individual gifted young writer. That might have given them a better chance to come up with an appropriate quality product.)

Jack

Okay, so just to be clear, this has nothing to do with any points that have actually been made or things that have actually been said.* This is about you thinking Alan Moore is derivative and destructive, so fuck that guy.

So... okay. Not much point in having a conversation with you, is there?

---
*If I'm wrong about this, please quote the post where I call Alan Moore a creative genius.

ALAN MOORE IS A SCARY-LOOKING POOPY-HEAD AND HE RUINED CAPTAIN NEMO FOR ME AND I DON'T CARE WHAT ANY OF YOU THINK AND I'M EAGERLY AWAITING EACH NEW ISSUE OF BEFORE WATCHMEN, STANDING OUTSIDE THE DOOR OF MY LOCAL COMICS SHOP AT 5 A.M. EVERY WEDNESDAY EVEN THOUGH IT DOESN'T OPEN FOR FIVE MORE HOURS! BUT HEY, KEEP BELIEVING OTHERWISE! I DON'T CARE WHAT ANYONE SAYS! BUT LET ME REPEAT MYSELF ... !

I'm baffled at Ted's responses: why is he reading Before Watchmen, when Moore's work is such derivative and destructive crap? Were the characters so great, but ultimately spoiled by Moore's treatment that Ted's really hoping that other creators will realize their full potential? It gets more ludicrous as he goes on.

Jack:

1) From what I have read of Wein's feelings towards Moore, there is a mixture of both jealousy and befuddlement. Wein created Swamp Thing and Wolverine, made less money off of them than Moore did off of his less popular creations, yet Moore plays the victim card. In financial terms Moore is one of (if not the) most financially successful writers in the history of the medium and most writers understood that you accept the money to give up the control. Wein can't understand why Moore can't be happy with a level of success beyond that which is dreamed by most comic writers.

2) As I have said, the jury is out on whether Before Watchmen will be a creative success. So far, it does not seem to be a success, at best it seems to be a wash. I doubt it will affect the long-term "Watchmen brand", as weak sequels or prequels usually don't diminish the original. But again, time will tell. I suppose BW's detractors can only hope that BW is such a colossal failure that it will cause the original to go out of print, thus reverting all rights to Moore.

This seems like exactly what Charles was just saying. Watchmen is derivative, but the jury's still out on Before Watchmen?

Oooookay.



And this, for the record, is pretty much the whole problem in a nutshell.

Did it ever occur to you or Len Wein that Alan Moore doesn't care about the money? Whatever your other hatred of Moore, he routinely leaves money on the table when a project does not interest him creatively. He gives away his movie money. He ignores mainstream publishers when they beg him for stories.

Moore wasn't looking for a payoff here.

Then maybe he has no place in the Watchmen Brand.™

Har! Yes, Ted reminds me of the Bill Hicks bit:

By the way if anyone here is in advertising or marketing… kill yourself.

No, no, no it’s just a little thought. I’m just trying to plant seeds. Maybe one day, they’ll take root – I don’t know. You try, you do what you can. Kill yourself.

Seriously though, if you are, do.

Aaah, no really, there’s no rationalisation for what you do and you are Satan’s little helpers. Okay – kill yourself – seriously. You are the ruiner of all things good, seriously. No this is not a joke, you’re going, “there’s going to be a joke coming,” there’s no fucking joke coming. You are Satan’s spawn filling the world with bile and garbage. You are fucked and you are fucking us. Kill yourself. It’s the only way to save your fucking soul, kill yourself.

Planting seeds. I know all the marketing people are going, “he’s doing a joke…” there’s no joke here whatsoever. Suck a tail-pipe, fucking hang yourself, borrow a gun from a Yank friend – I don’t care how you do it. Rid the world of your evil fucking makinations. Machi… Whatever, you know what I mean.

I know what all the marketing people are thinking right now too, “Oh, you know what Bill’s doing, he’s going for that anti-marketing dollar. That’s a good market, he’s very smart.”

Oh man, I am not doing that. You fucking evil scumbags!

“Ooh, you know what Bill’s doing now, he’s going for the righteous indignation dollar. That’s a big dollar. A lot of people are feeling that indignation. We’ve done research – huge market. He’s doing a good thing.”

Godammit, I’m not doing that, you scum-bags! Quit putting a godamm dollar sign on every fucking thing on this planet!

“Ooh, the anger dollar. Huge. Huge in times of recession. Giant market, Bill’s very bright to do that.”

God, I’m just caught in a fucking web.

“Ooh the trapped dollar, big dollar, huge dollar. Good market – look at our research. We see that many people feel trapped. If we play to that and then separate them into the trapped dollar…”

How do you live like that? And I bet you sleep like fucking babies at night, don’t you?

“What didya do today honey?”

“Oh, we made ah, we made ah arsenic a childhood food now, goodnight.” [snores] “Yeah we just said you know is your baby really too loud? You know?” [snores] “Yeah, you know the mums will love it.” [snores]

Sleep like fucking children, don’t ya, this is your world isn’t it?

I like the superhero genre. Before Watchmen could be good superhero stories (like the Lee-Kirby Fantastic Four or Alan Moore's work on the ABC line), but if the remaining issues are no better than Nite Owl #1 I probably will stop paying for them.

Some people think talent trumps genre, or that perceived aesthetic qualities matter more than other considerations. I have my aesthetic limits (see my recent review of the DCnU Huntress mini-series. But my aesthetic limits are mine alone, and I don't believe that they are any more or less valid than yours.

And I certainly never said that Moore's work is "crap". On the contrary, I said he is "probably the most talented to have ever worked in the medium". I just think it is a shame he writes so nihilistically (cynically, perhaps?) towards others' creations when he could be doing so much more to elevate the medium.

But if you want to engage me, do so as jack has done, rather than trot out the same tired old arguments that Ceci does.

No it can't. By virtue of what it is, no it can't. The best you can hope for here is a passably well-crafted Secret Wars,* or any other product of a marketing committee.



Apparently they're so tired, they can't even be addressed! The fatigue induced by my arguments forces... FORCES poor Ted to ignore them completely, and just repeat himself over and over and over and over and over and over again. He can barely even find time to make up a strawman and attribute it to me!

But give the plucky little guy credit... somehow, despite the odds, he manages to make up that strawman.

---
*Which is not to say that Secret Wars was well-crafted, of course.

Did it ever occur to you that Moore was looking for a payoff in the '80s when he sold the rights to his story to DC? He could have kept the rights and done the story through a smaller publisher, but he chose money over rights. I'm sure he regrets the choice now.

As someone who thinks there's nothing ethically or morally wrong with BEFORE WATCHMEN, I still have to agree that "We had to do it because Alan Moore won't" is total crap.

And all of the handwaving about Moore's own work and its use of other's creations is just another example that there have always been special rules for special people.

Mike

He then continues, "This baby wasn't going to rape itself!"

And I would like to see some numbers to support that assertion. Once again, he was coerced into writing Neonomicon for Avatar because he had a looming tax bill.

(Taken in concert with The Courtyard, Neonomicon is quite a great comic, btw)




Hahaha. No, it isn't.



If Watchmen does go out of print for a while, that won't have anything to do with BW. It will be because Warners flooded the market with copies of it before the movie came out. Actually, BW is probably the result of the market for Watchmen sales being completely saturated for the first time in 25 years.

Ultimately, there is no point to BEFORE WATCHMEN. There wasn't anything that was missing from the original that need to be addressed.

Len Wein's arguments are crass to say the least.

And Allen's right, Neonomicon is a great comic.

I heard quite a few people criticize Neonomicon as being just creature porn. And it is. By itself, it's very much just a prototypical blood-gore-sex comic that one would expect under the Avatar brand. But put it together with the previous mini adapted from Moore's short story and it's absolutely brilliant. The TPB collects the two.

Ozymandias #1 seems about low-average in the story department, but Jae Lee's art is really impressive, especially all those round panels as a way to break out of the Watchmen mold while still paying homage to it. I may buy this one sometime in the next few weeks.

While I will download it off Z-Cult next Wednesday.

At least it's providing jobs for people who like to draw. If it works, it'll give them something to count on later. Good thing Thirty years later, John Totleben and Steve Bissette can at least count on Swamp Thing royalties, Moore never gave them much help with Miracleman or 1963.

I *almost* looked at the issue drawn by Amanda Conner, but seeing all the other spin-offs (and the unappealing look of the comic rack itself) led me to not even take it off the shelf.

Hughes has had All-Star Wonder Woman on his plate for how many years?

Your point being?

they're keeping the trains running on time. well, not really, but people are at least getting paid for something.

There are myriad opportunities for providing content that the market wants, without raping Watchmen.

A comics adaptation of Moore's Fashion Beast screenplay solicits this month. From Avatar, of course.

Couple of other points...

Len Wein's house burned down in 2009 and he was likely keen to get involved in a lucrative project to help him recover from that. His wife won $60,000 on Jeopardy to that end.

Alan Moore has won 27 Eisner Awards, while Wein has only been inducted into the Eisner "Hall of Fame" in 2008, never having won an award in an actual category.