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#599464 - 07/13/12 11:39 AM
BEFORE SANDMAN?
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Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
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#599471 - 07/13/12 03:08 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Joe Lee]
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Member
Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1093
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I remember a Sandman mini-series by Gaiman that came out, maybe within a few years ago. Did it do pretty well?
_________________________
"My head's lopsided *****!"-Red Gumby
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#599473 - 07/13/12 03:23 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Gerald]
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Member
Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11936
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
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I don't really object to another SANDMAN project if Neil Gaiman is writing it. Gaiman wrote a good hardcover SANDMAN graphic novel a year or two after he concluded the monthly series. It's his baby if he wants to return to it.
Of course, I do wonder if Dan DiDio leaned on him -- said, "Hey, Neil, did'ja see what we did to WATCHMEN when Alan Moore wouldn't play ball? How would'ja like to see BEFORE SANDMAN, by Dan DiDio and Jim Lee, covers by Rob Liefield?" -- and shuddering, Gaiman said, "No, fine, I'll do it myself."
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#599476 - 07/13/12 03:55 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Lawson]
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Member
Registered: 05/10/99
Posts: 1080
Loc: Mason, MI, USA
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I don't really object to another SANDMAN project if Neil Gaiman is writing it. Gaiman wrote a good hardcover SANDMAN graphic novel a year or two after he concluded the monthly series. It's his baby if he wants to return to it.
Of course, I do wonder if Dan DiDio leaned on him -- said, "Hey, Neil, did'ja see what we did to WATCHMEN when Alan Moore wouldn't play ball? How would'ja like to see BEFORE SANDMAN, by Dan DiDio and Jim Lee, covers by Rob Liefield?" -- and shuddering, Gaiman said, "No, fine, I'll do it myself." I would think the thought of Dan Didio personally writing one's creations would be enough to scare any writer.
_________________________
Ted J. Kilvington, Jr.
*****
"I still have that comic, only now it's in liquid form!"
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#599477 - 07/13/12 03:56 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Lawson]
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Member
Registered: 08/18/99
Posts: 10002
Loc: us of fuckin' a
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The Gospel, wherein much Truth is written.
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#599500 - 07/14/12 03:10 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Alexander Ness]
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Member
Registered: 10/02/00
Posts: 389
Loc: ON, CAN
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Gaiman proposed this years ago but DC wouldn't pay for it. Gaiman wanted them to bump up his royalties to match what he could make from writing a novel, and they said, "Eff you! We pay for comics, not novels."
Someone caved.
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#599502 - 07/14/12 10:03 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: billybates]
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Member
Registered: 05/10/99
Posts: 1080
Loc: Mason, MI, USA
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When was the last time either Neil Gaiman had a popular novel or DC had a critical success on the scale of a Neil Gaiman work?
_________________________
Ted J. Kilvington, Jr.
*****
"I still have that comic, only now it's in liquid form!"
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#599503 - 07/14/12 10:58 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Ted Kilvington]
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Member
Registered: 11/25/00
Posts: 10034
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska USA
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1995. I think it was a Tuesday.
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If This Be... PayPal!!!"I think ChrisW is the funniest man in entertainment still alive..." -- the perceptive Tom Spurgeon
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#599561 - 07/17/12 11:10 AM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Mr. Socko]
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Member
Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11936
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
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I've only sampled Gaiman's prose fiction -- it's not my cup of tea -- but it sells pretty well. Plus, a number of his stories have been turned into movies. Unless he has a coke habit that nobody has mentioned, I assume that Gaiman is financially set for life and can work on whatever projects interest him.
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#599569 - 07/17/12 12:53 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Lawson]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
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There was a book club thing at my local library last winter, featuring Good Omens, the book Gaiman Wrote with Terry Pratchett. There was a huge number of Gaiman fans there. Everyone I talked to had read all his books and at least some of the comics. I can't imagine he's not doing very well with such a rabid and loyal fan base, if my community is any judge.
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#599571 - 07/17/12 12:57 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Joe Lee]
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Member
Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11936
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
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That's been my observation, too.
More than nearly any other comic book writer, Gaiman enjoys huge crossover appeal. Fans of general fantasy, including young women who would not touch BATMAN or GREEN LANTERN, tend to buy his books and go to his movies. In fact, even if you look at comics exclusively, SANDMAN is one of the few comics other than Manga that I've ever seen a female reading.
Gaiman's books -- including a decent amount of kids lit -- chug along decently in terms of sales.
I doubt Gaiman would return to SANDMAN unless he had some stories he wanted to tell. He doesn't need the money.
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#599573 - 07/17/12 01:39 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Lawson]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
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Fans of general fantasy, including young women who would not touch BATMAN or GREEN LANTERN, tend to buy his books and go to his movies. In fact, even if you look at comics exclusively, SANDMAN is one of the few comics other than Manga that I've ever seen a female reading. I was at another message board talking with some guys about Walking Dead (probably on your short list with Manga and Sandman). Specifically, about the comic, and deviations from comic to tv, the artists on the book etc when a girl pops in with this... GIRL: Thats why I don't read the books/comics before I watch the movie/show. It always ruins it. ME: Amy, Wouldn't watching the TV show first ruin the comic by that logic? Besides, I read the Walking Dead long before I new it would become a TV show. GIRL: I don't read comics unless it is Wonder Woman ( and yes, I love Linda Carter but I wouldn't watch a WonderWoman movie because no one would take Linda's place for me). So no it doesn't ruin it for me. I have no further comment. I thought that was pretty funny. I bet she's never read any comics. But I think more and more women are reading comics, even some Marvel and DC stuff, I have a friend in NYC who is always telling me the trials and tribulations of being a fangirl. The LCS I go to has more and more female customers, and I saw some footage from one of the Marvel panels at comicon where most of the people asking questions were women and self professed long time comic fans. I think they were all there to see Robert Downey Jr. but who knows, the industry could use some new readers. Maybe they'll become pros and change some of the stupid shit.
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#599579 - 07/17/12 03:06 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Joe Lee]
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Member
Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11936
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
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DC Comics' market research this year suggests that its typical customer is a guy in his 30s or early 40s with a long, established history of buying comic books.
Very few women or youths are among DC's readers.
And this research was conducted after DC rebooted its line in an effort to attract a larger and more diverse audience.
From April:
At the ComicsPro meeting in Dallas today DC Comics presented the results of an extensive survey of customers who purchased “New 52” titles during the first weeks of what was the comic industry phenomenon of 2011.
Among the key findings of the survey was the fact the “New 52” titles appealed primarily to avid comic book fans, who represented 70% of the survey’s respondents, and lapsed readers (more than 25% were lapsed readers), while 5% were new to comics.
Other key findings include the fact that under 2% of the respondents were under 18, that 93% of the respondents were male, and that more than 50% of the survey respondents had annual incomes under $60,000.
The three-pronged survey, which was conducted in conjunction with A.C. Nielsen, was conducted from September 26th to October 7th of 2011. This survey was targeted specifically to customers who purchased “New 52” titles.
The age of the respondents varied across the 3 survey groups as follows:
13-17 1%-2% 18-24 14%-22% 25-34 37%-42% 35-44 27%-35% 45-54 7%-11% 55+ 2%
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#599586 - 07/17/12 03:33 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Lawson]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
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Oh wow. Those are not very promising figures at all.
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#599598 - 07/17/12 04:09 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Joe Lee]
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Member
Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11936
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
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Oh wow. Those are not very promising figures at all. They're especially bad numbers following a major reboot that involved a great deal of advertising. DC failed to attract (a) new readers, (b) young readers, (c) female readers or any combination thereof. It got what it had already: Comic Shop Guy from "The Simpsons," frantically buying all the variant covers and organizing them at home on Friday nights.
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#599601 - 07/17/12 04:31 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Lawson]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
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They had a great line or two of books targeted toward manga fans and women/girls. Did they bother to examine why those lines failed? Did they ever make it past the comic shops?
They need to hire someone who can think outside of the comic box.
Maybe someone with marketing and distribution experience at a traditional publishing company, might teach them how to get their books to the right hands. And accept the fact that the Superhero market is already over-saturated.
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#599606 - 07/17/12 04:52 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Joe Lee]
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Member
Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1093
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I thought that was pretty funny. I bet she's never read any comics.
I have a friend who is pretty closeminded when it comes to anything that can be considered "for geeks." However, he's a huge fan of The Walking Dead. He told me that he's actually interested in reading the comics considering that's where it started. I bought him an issue #5. After reading it he told me he was pretty disappointed. He said the comic was too short, thought I spent too much money, and felt like it was half the story of what a normal episode shows. He also didn't like the "cartoony" art. I later got him an issue of Deadworld and he said that it was pretty good. I'm glad I didn't read 300 before the film. The movie version is much better.
_________________________
"My head's lopsided *****!"-Red Gumby
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#599607 - 07/17/12 04:58 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Gerald]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
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I'm glad I didn't read 300 before the film. The movie version is much better. Yeah I liked the movie version better as well, though I read the whole thing first, but it didn't bug me, goes along with what you were saying in the other thread. If the movie version is better, most people don't mind any changes or discrepancies from the book or comic.
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#599608 - 07/17/12 05:00 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Joe Lee]
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Member
Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1093
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They had a great line or two of books targeted toward manga fans and women/girls. Did they bother to examine why those lines failed? Did they ever make it past the comic shops?
Probably because it split the consumer based. The traditional comic fans don't want to buy the manga styled titles because they don't consider them the "real" versions of the characters. And there's not enough new readers to keep the experiment afloat. I think that's the problem with DC's Nu52. All the titles look and feel the same and are aimed at a very specific demographic instead of trying appeal to many. Sailor Moon looks very different from Crying Freeman. Yet Teen Titans looks pretty much the same as Batman. I think Marvel's experiments have been more fun than the main titles. Spider-man Loves Mary Jane featured a great manga artist who stayed on for I believe 2 years and never missed a deadline. It was a new take on Spider-man that was a joy to read. I never gave it a chance when it first came out though because I thought it was either too simple or because it wasn't in continuity.
_________________________
"My head's lopsided *****!"-Red Gumby
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#599610 - 07/17/12 05:04 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Gerald]
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Member
Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11936
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
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I have a friend who is pretty closeminded when it comes to anything that can be considered "for geeks." However, he's a huge fan of The Walking Dead. He told me that he's actually interested in reading the comics considering that's where it started. I bought him an issue #5. After reading it he told me he was pretty disappointed. He said the comic was too short, thought I spent too much money, and felt like it was half the story of what a normal episode shows. This must be a recurring obstacle when the comic book industry tries to lure new readers from comics-based movies and TV shows. You see the movie "The Avengers" and you like it. Cool! And there are comic books with these characters? Great! So you search your city for a comics shop. You find The Android's Basement in a half-empty strip mall on a highway bypass near the airport. In you go. Guh, that smell! Whatever. As your eyes get accustomed to the darkness, you find not one comic book version of the Avengers but fully one dozen titles with THE AVENGERS splattered across the cover, most of them now tied in closely to the X-Men, which involves another dozen titles of their own, and all of these are four or five bucks each, and each of them is a tiny fraction of the story and can be read in about eight minutes, and hey, did'ja want the variant covers with that? The movie told you a story. Any one issue of the comic book, costing nearly as much as your movie ticket, will tell you 1/116th of a story, starting halfway through. If Marvel or DC had any sincere interest in winning new readers, they would be winning new readers by now.
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#599613 - 07/17/12 05:09 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Gerald]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
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...He said the comic was too short, thought I spent too much money, and felt like it was half the story of what a normal episode shows. I don't think he's alone. The traditional comics format doesn't appeal to a lot of people anymore. They want bigger formats with more pages like manga or Archie digests or trades. I wish they would try a Shogun Jump style, anthology format for alternative genres. It'd have a high enough price point for news stand distribution too. One Horror, one Western, maybe a War book. Maybe a fantasy book. Each full of new stuff and reprint some old stuff, b&w with s couple of color sections for some of the new material up front.
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#599615 - 07/17/12 05:11 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Lawson]
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Member
Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1093
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When I go to the new comic section I see this.
Before Watchmen, Vampirella, Batman, Green Lantern, AvX, AvX, AvX, AvX, AvX, AvX, AvX, AvX, AvX, AvX, AvX, AvX, Warlord of Mars.
_________________________
"My head's lopsided *****!"-Red Gumby
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#599616 - 07/17/12 05:15 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Gerald]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
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The guy at my LCS talked me into a Warlord of Mars TPB. I was reluctant, the art looked so much like an eighties image youngblood strikefile style, but he swore to me it was as good as the new Flash Gordon stuff. Haven't read it yet.
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#599617 - 07/17/12 05:18 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Joe Lee]
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Member
Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1093
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I don't think he's alone. The traditional comics format doesn't appeal to a lot of people anymore. They want bigger formats with more pages like manga or Archie digests or trades. True. It hurts even more that comic writers and artists tell decompressed stories with 4 widescreen panels per page in a 21 page book. I wish they would try a Shogun Jump style, anthology format for alternative genres. It'd have a high enough price point for news stand distribution too.
I tried Shogun Jump but the stories seemed pretty bland. Like a bunch of Inuyasha's. I've been wanting to get into the new Dark Horse Presents but the $8 price tag is too hefty and the covers never attract me, nor the interior art. The only digest I've bought that I thought was excellent and provided a great amount of content and variety was an old one called PULP. There was like 5 or more stories per issue, black and white, and all different. Currently there's a new EERIE anthology which is quite good. Nice painted cover and some really demented stories with good art. Traditional dimensions but more pages.
_________________________
"My head's lopsided *****!"-Red Gumby
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#599619 - 07/17/12 05:23 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Gerald]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
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I tried Shogun Jump but the stories seemed pretty bland. Like a bunch of Inuyasha's. Imagine the same format but full of DC's All Star Western or War comics. New and reprinted material.
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#599623 - 07/17/12 05:44 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Joe Lee]
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Member
Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1093
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I think if it was an All-Star anthology that featured more mature Batman, Superman stories (but not graphic violence or nudity) combined with creator owned stories in the western and war genre, that would be awesome.
Weird War Tales from Vertigo was pretty crazy. It had an early Frank Quitely illustrated story that was both sad and strange.
For some reason I'm not that interested in Western comics but it could be because of the art. I do know that Jonah Hex is pretty good, atleast the old stories.
_________________________
"My head's lopsided *****!"-Red Gumby
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#599624 - 07/17/12 06:00 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Joe Lee]
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Member
Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 361
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Maybe someone with marketing and distribution experience at a traditional publishing company, might teach them how to get their books to the right hands. And accept the fact that the Superhero market is already over-saturated.
With Minx, though, DC has taken what, for it, is the unusual step of seeking outside help. It has joined with Alloy Marketing + Media to promote Minx. All told, DC, a unit of Time Warner, will spend $250,000 next year to push the line.
“In terms of consumer marketing, it’s got to be the largest thing we’ve done in at least three decades,” said Paul Levitz, the president and publisher of DC Comics. “It’s not large by the scale of consumer marketing and advertising as it’s done in America, but it’s a large-scale commitment, I think, for a publishing company in general.”
Alloy Entertainment, a division of the marketing company, has helped to make hits of books like “Gossip Girls” and “The Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants.” Alloy was also the so-called book packager behind “How Opal Mehta Got Kissed, Got Wild and Got a Life,” a first novel by a 19-year-old Harvard sophomore named Kaavya Viswanathan that was pulled from stores earlier this year when it was learned that numerous passages had been copied from novels by other writers.
Still, Alloy is offering DC access to a large audience of teenage girls, through Web sites and the Delia’s shopping catalog, which has a mailing list of nearly five million, according to Samantha Skey, Alloy’s senior vice president for strategic marketing. Ms. Skey said Minx would be the first graphic novel publisher to be included in the catalog. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/25/arts/design/25minx.html?_r=3&oref=slogin&oref=sloginBut according to Wikipedia they gave it less than two years before shutting it down. The manga imprint went longer but it launched by alienating some fans (manga fans hate when US publishers edit the content) and then the manga boom sort of bust a little.
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#599625 - 07/17/12 06:01 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Strenuous Teddy]
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Member
Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 361
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#599627 - 07/17/12 06:21 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Strenuous Teddy]
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Member
Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 361
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Just an observation, I'm not really sure if it carries much weight but there are plenty of grim and bloody manga and the Shonen titles certainly can get bloody and yet when I look at a lot of shonen promotional art and covers the heroes are often smiling and the art is quite colorful and inviting and showcasing lots of characters and the seriousness inside is often balanced with silliness. I was just looking at the latest DC solicitations and almost every one has some muscled up characters flexing and gritting their teeth or shouting angrily or scowling, usually in the process of throttling another character. It's really funny. Just open up a bunch of cover images and then flip through the tabs: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=39637And their Vertigo line often looks drabby too. I think they'd need more Why I Hate Saturns and stuff like that that actually demonstrates more emotional range and just looks like fun for adults, teens, or whoever. Maybe this Sandman series might do some of that.
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#599637 - 07/17/12 09:26 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Strenuous Teddy]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
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Whoops typo, my fault... "Shonen Jump" was a Japanese anthology comic as thick as one of those smaller marvel essentials, but with a cheap magazine cover. Sometimes had a few color signatures in the front. I'm not so much referring to the content as the physical format. The content was always a wide variety of stuff, some so-so some no to so-so. But it struck me when I saw them that it would be a cool format for american comics to try out.
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#599638 - 07/17/12 09:39 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Joe Lee]
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Member
Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 12277
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It's a pretty decent size and would be cheaper than the equivalent stack in regular comics but pricey enough to be able to get newstand distribution. Hard to find photos that are not just flat, and that are showing the thickness of the thing, but here are a couple... http://gigazine.jp/img/2009/02/09/dbz_rebirth/dbz_01.jpghttp://images03.olx.ca/ui/3/76/90/50137690_2.jpgImagine instead of three or four monthly bat books and a robin and batgirl, having all in one anthology, with some other appropriate characters like Green Arrow, Black Canary, or more, plus a Gotham PD story and some old silver or golden age reprints, for like $9 or $10 in one magazine. Like the Old Batman family comic but huge.
Edited by Joe Lee (07/17/12 09:45 PM)
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#599640 - 07/17/12 11:24 PM
Re: BEFORE SANDMAN?
[Re: Joe Lee]
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Member
Registered: 05/10/99
Posts: 1080
Loc: Mason, MI, USA
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I'm not surprised the books couldn't find a new audience, as I can't imagine any new blood picking up a $3-per-10-minute entertainment habit, regardless of content. But new readers were only half the goal, as I'm pretty sure lapsed fanboys was always at least half the target audience of the DCnU.
_________________________
Ted J. Kilvington, Jr.
*****
"I still have that comic, only now it's in liquid form!"
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