Lawson, that's a healthy attitude to have, and for the most part I agree with you. That is the best way to deal with anyone you disagree with.

But I think the evidence is undeniable that a lot of people feel differently, since we don't see them here anymore. Now, Allen is definitely not to blame for everyone who has left here. We're a rowdy, raucous bunch and we always have been, so it's not the place for everyone. And things change over time, as people find other places to hang out, both online and off.

I'm just looking at what I see as a repeated, recognizable pattern of harm, and weighing that against what I agree are genuine strengths and benefits that Allen brings to this place. At some point the balance tips in one direction, although it is debatable where that point is.

Well ... Allen can't reach out of my computer screen and slap me upside the head. (If he could, doubtless he would have done so by now.) So to an extent, if he's ruining my fun, I'm sort of letting him.

This isn't true of the real Internet trolls. We used to have that David Porta fellow who went nuts and inserted reams of Biblical quotes into every thread, apropos of nothing. That was disruptive. People were right to get angry about that. He got banned.

Allen gets into arguments. Passionate arguments. You can choose to engage with him -- or not. Sometimes if it's fun, I do. Other times, I don't. Problem solved.

When Allen has "chased away" a comics pro, inevitably the pro could have solved the problem by ignoring Allen. Joe Pro would post something here -- a promotional blurb, perhaps -- and Allen would sling a hard question or criticism at him. Joe Pro could answer it candidly and move on or ignore him. Most often, Joe Pro got pissed off at Allen and spent the next three pages of comments trading insults with Allen, perhaps "leaving Comicon to the trolls forever" five or six times but continuing to come back for more because -- and here's the kicker -- HE JUST COULDN'T DROP IT. Evidently arguing with Allen is like eating potato chips. You can't stop once you've started.

(And yes, that was an analogy, and a bad one, so Allen can insult me now. :) )

From Erik Larsen to Steve Bissette, all the pros had to do was ignore Allen's offending comments and interact with whoever else on Comicon that they chose. But they could not bear it. Because Allen was wrong and had to be corrected.

And I've said this before, but it bears repeating: One reason many pros left Comicon, in my opinion, is that in the dozen years since this place started, it's become common for pros and publishers to run their own Web sites and/or message boards. A number of pros who used to be here now moderate their own sites. That's more comfortable for them. Makes sense. I don't think we should take all of those departures personally.

On the other hand, if anyone wants to claim to be one of my trophies, I'll take it.

Lawson: "So to an extent, if he's ruining my fun, I'm sort of letting him."

It's sad to see that Lawson is obviously so incapable of being reasonable. Quick, somebody start a "Lawson hostility" thread!

STOP THE INDECENCY

I like Joe Lee. I would hate to see him leave. He's a nice guy, a talented artist, usually a lot of fun to talk to. If you're reading this, Joe, come back.

But -- when Joe locked himself into a two-week death spiral with Allen over the legacy of the late Joe Kubert, I could see where it was going. And unnecessarily! All Joe had to say was, "I disagree -- in fact, I think you're acting like a jerk -- but I'm not going to let it detract from my feelings for Kubert." And then ignore whatever Allen said next in that particular thread.

Unfortunately, there is this primal instinct in people -- and I sympathize, I feel the tug in my own soul sometimes -- to declare "SOMEONE ON TEH INNNERWEBS IS WRONG! I MUST CORRECT THEM!" And then, with the bit in your teeth, not let go, never let go, never surrender, never never never.

I watched as Ceci tried in a nice way to alert Joe to this risk, early in the argument, and he got a slap in the face for his trouble.

I also suffer, in this argument, from sympathy for Allen.

I think he essentially was right.

Personally, I wouldn't have criticized the Kubert School as bluntly and definitely as he did because I don't know enough about its operations. But what we do know raises legitimate questions. And yeah, there's BEFORE WATCHMEN. So no, Joe Kubert was not perfect, was not a saint, there were flaws.

And I think it's fair, in a comic book message board thread about the man, to discuss this all in a civil tone.

In my line of work, it's not uncommon to write an obituary for a public figure and list the good with the bad. He served three times in office. He also was indicted for theft of public funds. Or he was a coach of the men's football team -- until he was fired for eight consecutive losing seasons.

The families and friends often howl, but -- hell, this is the fellow's life. Good and bad.

Lawson: "If you're reading this, Joe, come back."

Hey, getting a plaque engraved ain't cheap, asshole.

[quote=Lawson]
Personally, I wouldn't have criticized the Kubert School as bluntly and definitely as he did because I don't know enough about its operations. But what we do know raises legitimate questions. And yeah, there's BEFORE WATCHMEN. So no, Joe Kubert was not perfect, was not a saint, there were flaws.

And I think it's fair, in a comic book message board thread about the man, to discuss this all in a civil tone.
[/quote]

I would like to note that, regarding the questions and accusations about the Kubert School, Steve Bissette's responses completely answered the questions and obliterated any doubt about the value of the school. So continued argument after that went beyond any kind of "civil tone," quickly devolving to insults.

Lawson, my impression is that you were thinking about the controversies over online diploma-mills like the University of Phoenix, and you incorrectly linked the Kubert School to places like that. I can understand making that mistake from lack of information, but not after hearing Bissette's fuller explanations.

But yeah, reopening that argument and continuing it for weeks isn't going to do us any good.

Bissette also works for a non-accreditted "school" that takes taxpayer money for no degree in return, so his input is slightly more than biased. Kubert was/is selling his personal industry connections as an education to deluded hopefuls. James Sturm, while a super nice fella, is no Joe Kubert.

Whereas with you, Allen, my impression is that your objection to the Kubert School is that Joe Kubert made his own choices and followed his own judgement in starting a risky enterprise, rather than following your superior judgement and doing what you would have preferred. As per usual, you take a difference of opinion as a personal affront to your own judgement and character. You can't respect anyone else, because you view that as a diminishment of yourself.

But as I have said to you before, this is not a zero-sum game. You don't have to tear down others to be respected yourself.

And again, reopening this argument is not doing us any good.