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#601142 - 10/02/12 10:30 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Peter Urkowitz]
Ceci n'est pas une chaussette Offline
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Registered: 12/19/05
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I also have no idea why Peter thinks that using "creator" to refer to the person who created a character is arbitrary semantics. Seems less like a caveat and more like a tautology to me.

Was John Buscema the creator of the Silver Surfer? No, obviously not. Jack Kirby was. This doesn't require you to accept terminology; just reality.
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#601143 - 10/02/12 11:33 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Ceci n'est pas une chaussette]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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The artists and writers *create* the stories and the pages, whether or not they created the characters or intellectual properties featured in those stories or on those pages. We can replace *create* with "craft," "manufacture," "produce" or some other variant of that if you'd like.
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#601145 - 10/03/12 10:10 AM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Ceci n'est pas une chaussette Offline
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This brings us back to Lawson's point. What's the problem with calling Buscema what he was: an artist?
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#601146 - 10/03/12 10:25 AM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Lawson]
MBunge Offline
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Registered: 07/19/01
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Loc: Waterloo, Iowa, United States
Originally Posted By: Lawson
No, no, you first, Mike.

It's not enough for you that John Buscema was an artist?

I'm no fan of Rob Liefeld. I think he's a crummy artist. And I don't know enough about his work at Image to say whether he's a creator, by my definition, or not. You would have to enlighten me on that one.


No, you first. You've thrown out a definition of "creator" that is clearly meant to exclude an overwhelming majority of comic book writers and artists (and, incidentally, probably the majority of folks in TV and movies and a decent sized minority of people in prose and even theater). The definition seems based almost entirely on creating original work instead of work-for-hire. Now you want to feign ignorance about whether or not Rob Liefeld fits that definition?

Let's try this. By what you've put forward here, as vague as it has been, Alan Moore wouldn't qualify as a "creator" based on WATCHMEN. After all...

1. It was work-for-hire.
2. Its main characters are reworked versions other people's creations.
3. Its plot was cribbed from an episode of THE OUTER LIMITS.

I need you to specifically define what you think "creator" should mean so we can avoid any goalpost moving.

Mike

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#601147 - 10/03/12 10:39 AM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: MBunge]
Lawson Offline
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Registered: 11/11/02
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Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Originally Posted By: MBunge
I need you to specifically define what you think "creator" should mean.

Mike


You need a life! grin

I use the word "creator" my own way. I've explained how. Others are free to disagree. I'm not the noun police.

I certainly respect work-for-hire artists like Curt Swan and Nick Cardy and Neal Adams who drew lots of classic comics that I loved. But in my mind, Jack Kirby is one step up from that because he created or co-created entire universes.

By the same token, many of us mock John Byrne for his ass-hat Internet rantings and endless X-Men commissions that rely on the pocketbook nostalgia of his 14 remaining fans from the 1970s. But I sincerely respect the guy in recent years for jumping back into the comics game to finish some of his old creator-owned titles and launch new ones. I won't be buying them, because Byrne no longer floats my boat, but I salute his enterprising spirit. Byrne stopped sitting around and waiting for a new Marvel regime to hand him another X-Men comic. He went out and created something new.

Likewise, while I've long enjoyed the comics and graphic novels of Darwyn Cooke (unlike Allen), I've gotten frustrated with the man because he's not a creator; he's (in Allen's apt word) a draftsman who reinterprets other men's stories. I'd like to see him produce his own original work. And in fact, more than once in the past, Cooke said he ached to get away from the for-hire superhero stuff and write and draw his own original graphic novels. It never happened. Whatever his other talents, he doesn't have that in him. He's not a creator.

You're free to disagree.

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#601148 - 10/03/12 11:10 AM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Ceci n'est pas une chaussette]
Lawson Offline
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Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Originally Posted By: Ceci n'est pas une chaussette
I'll make it easy; in addition to characters at Image, like those in Youngblood, Liefeld also created (or co-created) a number of characters at Marvel. Some, like Cable and Deadpool, have had real legs on them.* So yes, by your (and any reasonable) definition, he is a creator of comic book characters.

Why acknowledging this is some sort of problem for Mike, I have no idea.

---
*But not feet. ZING!


Yeah, see, I don't know much about Liefeld other than he's a crummy artist, he co-founded Image Comics and ... well, that may be all I know about Liefeld.

I think Mike invoked Liefield's name to ask me whether any creator was superior to any "mere" artist simply because he had created something.

And the answer would be, no, I don't think so. If you create crap, then I'm not too terribly impressed by your crap. Kirby and Liefield are in the same category, technically. They both went out and created something new. But it's the difference between the lightning and the lightning bug, to paraphrase Mr. Clemens.

On the other hand, any comics pro who leaves the security of the Big Two and heads off to start his own studio, his own publisher, to publish his own work, I do admire that in the abstract. I've heard bad stuff about Image so I won't defend their business practices specifically. But I admire the general principle. A lot of comics pros kvetch about DC and Marvel while begging on their knees for a shot at Batman or the Avengers. When the for-hire work dries up, they leave comics. They see no other option.

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#601149 - 10/03/12 12:03 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Lawson]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
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Ozymandias #3...

In a fistfight with Blake, Veidt bites off the end of his cigar and spits it back in Blake's face. The top of the next page, Blake says, "Blow me, showgirl." The page before, Veidt disarmed Blake by throwing a pencil into his gun barrel. I would really like to give Wein the benefit of the doubt on whether or not this was intentional allusion.

Secret origin of the Antarctic fortress. Gee, I wonder if Veidt will kill the architects.

Apparently, Veidt "manipulated" the stock market to make his fortune.

Another Veidt/Blake conversation includes the emphasized words "balls" and "cocksure." I'm sure it's intentional now.

Clarification on how to pronounce Ozyman-DEE-us. Yeah, that was worth six panels.

Janie's getting "that queasy feeling" again. Pregnancy? Or does Doc actually cause cancer?

Veidt killed the architects. Surprise-surprise.

Alt cover by James Jean wannabe Massimo Carnevale.
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If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
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#601150 - 10/03/12 12:10 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Lawson Offline
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Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Veidt killed the architects. Surprise-surprise.


He'll regret that in a few years when he wants to add a second bathroom onto the back of the place and maybe a nice deck.

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#601151 - 10/03/12 12:16 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: MBunge]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7074
Originally Posted By: MBunge
3. Its plot was cribbed from an episode of THE OUTER LIMITS.

I asked Joe this and he didn't answer: Have you seen "The Architects of Fear?" To say that Watchmen was lifted from that is, at best, a severe stretch. Try reading Sun Tzu's The Art of War and you'll likely be closer to finding the inspiration for the false flag plot of Watchmen.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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#601152 - 10/03/12 12:20 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Lawson]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7074
Originally Posted By: Lawson
I sincerely respect the guy in recent years for jumping back into the comics game to finish some of his old creator-owned titles and launch new ones.

It's not Byrne, but for some reason this reminded me that Faust: Love of the Damned #14 solicited last month.
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"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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