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#601128 - 10/02/12 01:52 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Lawson]
MBunge Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lawson
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Very few of them have actually created intellectual properties of any weight.


Originally Posted By: MBunge
I'm pretty sure ALL of the folks on that list created new characters and concepts during their time laboring in the salt mines of the Big 2.

Mike


Not sure where you're going with this, but I'll bite. While working for DC or Marvel, what intellectual properties of any weight has Gail Simone created? John Romita Jr.?


Since Simone has only worked in comics since 2001, in an era when new creations are almost actively discouraged by publishers and fans, you got a point.

JRJR? Well, it's always hard to say with someone who's just an artist, but JRJR was at least part of the process in creating Hobgoblin, Nimrod, Hydro-Man, Justin Hammer, Thyphoid Mary, Forge, Dazzler and many others.

Mike

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#601129 - 10/02/12 02:13 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: MBunge]
MBunge Offline
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And to give Simone her due, she took a 1960s joke like Catman and turned him into an interesting character. I think there's a certain amount of creativity in such an act.

Mike

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#601130 - 10/02/12 02:37 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: MBunge]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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I don't begrudge craftsmen for not being creators. One of my very favorite comics when I was a kid was O'Neill & Adams' Green Lantern/Green Arrow, after all. But I thought the issues of ownership and control were addressed in the 80's. Yet here we still are with Neal Adams drawing Batman and the X-Men.
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#601134 - 10/02/12 04:39 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: MBunge]
Lawson Offline
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Originally Posted By: MBunge
And to give Simone her due, she took a 1960s joke like Catman and turned him into an interesting character. I think there's a certain amount of creativity in such an act.

Mike


Actually, I enjoy Gail Simone's stories, including BIRDS OF PREY, though I've only read bits here and there. I just wouldn't say she's a creator in the sense that I'm thinking of one.

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#601135 - 10/02/12 05:45 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Lawson]
MBunge Offline
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Loc: Waterloo, Iowa, United States
Originally Posted By: Lawson
Originally Posted By: MBunge
And to give Simone her due, she took a 1960s joke like Catman and turned him into an interesting character. I think there's a certain amount of creativity in such an act.

Mike


Actually, I enjoy Gail Simone's stories, including BIRDS OF PREY, though I've only read bits here and there. I just wouldn't say she's a creator in the sense that I'm thinking of one.


Well, in the way you're thinking of it, Rob Leifeld is a creator but John Buscema and Dick Ayers don't quite make the grade. I'm not sure defining the term like that makes a whole lot of sense.

Mike

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#601136 - 10/02/12 05:49 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: MBunge]
Lawson Offline
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It's not enough for you that John Buscema was an artist?

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#601137 - 10/02/12 05:56 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Lawson]
MBunge Offline
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Registered: 07/19/01
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Loc: Waterloo, Iowa, United States
Originally Posted By: Lawson
It's not enough for you that John Buscema was an artist?


It's not too much for you to claim Rob Liefeld as a "creator" but not Buscema?

Mike

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#601139 - 10/02/12 06:11 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: MBunge]
Lawson Offline
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No, no, you first, Mike.

It's not enough for you that John Buscema was an artist?

I'm no fan of Rob Liefeld. I think he's a crummy artist. And I don't know enough about his work at Image to say whether he's a creator, by my definition, or not. You would have to enlighten me on that one.

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#601140 - 10/02/12 07:37 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Lawson]
Ceci n'est pas une chaussette Offline
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I'll make it easy; in addition to characters at Image, like those in Youngblood, Liefeld also created (or co-created) a number of characters at Marvel. Some, like Cable and Deadpool, have had real legs on them.* So yes, by your (and any reasonable) definition, he is a creator of comic book characters.

Why acknowledging this is some sort of problem for Mike, I have no idea.

---
*But not feet. ZING!
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#601141 - 10/02/12 10:10 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Ceci n'est pas une chaussette]
Peter Urkowitz Offline
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I think using "creators" as shorthand for "writers and pencillers and inkers and letterers and colorists and all other creative personnel" works just fine.

Adding on further caveats like "but only if they independently came up with characters and concepts of lasting artistic merit and commercial value" is just playing semantics. Come up with whatever term you want for that category. Also come up with terms like "craftsmen" for the people you exclude from that category. That's all fine, but recognize that your terms are arbitrary and that nobody else is obliged to accept your terminology.

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