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#600968 - 09/22/12 10:16 AM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Charles Reece]
steel: A Long Departed Hero Online   content
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Loc: The MBA (Mysterious Blue Area)...
Did you read FASHION BEAST? There's no limit to how bad this stuff can get. Get out now, before you reach ultimate zero and your mind collapses.

Rehab at www.ReconditePictures.com

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#600969 - 09/22/12 12:16 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: steel: A Long Departed Hero]
Allen Montgomery Offline
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7087
I was going to wait on Fashion Beast until it's done to read the whole thing, even though it did show up on ZCult last week. So now I've read the first issue.

It's a limited series, originally conceived as a screenplay. I think it's available online but I've never read the screenplay, so I don't know where the story's going or whether the end of issue one was a natural resting point to break the serial. Content-wise, it's a very broad-stroke introduction to the settings and characters. Moore has a wonderful knack for tying everything together in a way that never feels overly explicative, so I trust this will come together nicely by the end of issue four (or whatever).

One central theme is apparently the Tarot. Building a story around the Tarot might prove to be a bit derivative of Alejandro Jodorowsky's The Holy Mountain, but keep in mind that Moore wrote this in the 80's when Jodo's movie was not widely available for viewing. In this story, I'm not clear yet on who it is that is throwing the cards.

Pretty decent art by Avatar standards.
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#600978 - 09/23/12 10:33 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Peter Urkowitz Offline
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Registered: 08/28/00
Posts: 3231
Loc: Salem, MA, USA
In NITE OWL #3, we meet a crazy evangelical preacher who quotes Allan Ginsberg. It's like Roy Thomas in sticking a literary quote into the narrative for no reason other than to show off the writer's education.

Also, JMS has Hollis Mason deliver JMS' writers summit pitch about there being five different levels of truth:

"There's the truth you tell to casual acquaintances. The truth you tell to your friends and family. The truth you tell to only a few people in your life. The truth you tell to yourself, to help you get through your days and nights. And then -- and then there's truth number five, the truth you don't want to admit even to yourself."

And then Hollis gives Dan Dreiberg a manuscript which he says contains truth number five. But that's nonsense, since by his own definition, he couldn't have even admitted it to himself if it were #5. According to the speech he just gave, the manuscript must be truth #3. So, yeah, bad writing based on incoherent thinking.

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#601091 - 09/30/12 11:18 AM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Peter Urkowitz]
Allen Montgomery Offline
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7087
NO #3... Secret origin of the "THE END IS NIGH" sign... three pages of reference to the fight in Blake's apartment, closer to the movie version than the comic... does Straczynski not realize "Under the Hood" is a double entendre for the masked hero and an auto mechanic?

Alt cover by shitty cartoonist and Dave Stevens necro-rapist Chris Samnee, with colors by generic opportunist Matt Wilson (who also colored some of the covers to Roger Langridge's SNARKED!).

And Joe Kubert's replacement is... BILL SIENKIEWICZ. Boleslav already fucked Alan Moore once on Big Numbers, but I guess that wasn't enough for him.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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#601096 - 10/01/12 02:51 AM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Gerald Offline
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Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1108
I'm reading the wiki entry for Big Numbers and it sounds so awesome. The cover for the first issue looks pretty nice. As much as I like the superhero genre I like it when writers and artists do comic work outside of it. I really wish there would have been a larger market for comic books like that and US put out by Vertigo.

That kind of sucks about Bill Sienkiewicz working on this comic. I love his artwork and most of the projects he's worked on.



Edited by Gerald (10/01/12 02:53 AM)
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#601106 - 10/01/12 12:40 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Lawson Offline
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Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Alt cover by shitty cartoonist and Dave Stevens necro-rapist Chris Samnee


laugh

I've enjoyed Chris Samnee on Mark Waid's DAREDEVIL and THOR: THE MIGHTY AVENGER, which was a kid-friendly take on the thunder god. Like Jesus Saiz, he's got a clean -- even borderline cartoony -- style that reminds me of David Mazzucchelli.

But what I love is that, when Allen doesn't like an artist, he doesn't just dislike him. He calls him a corpse fucker.

Regarding his participation in BEFORE WATCHMEN -- eh, that is regrettable. No denying that I think less of anyone who has agreed to be part of that project. Though between all of the many mini-series (with more being added) and the dumbass variant covers, the Wall of Shame soon will include most working comics pros, I'm afraid.

In fact, maybe that was the point of all the variant covers -- safety in numbers. It looks bad to piss all over another artist's original work, so you hide among the 50 other men and women doing it with you.

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#601107 - 10/01/12 03:40 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Lawson]
Gerald Offline
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Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1108
That's a good point on the safety in numbers thing. The original lineup of artists and writers for BW looked like scabs among the rest of the industry, even among the other DC people. But now it seems like everyone is working on this weekly series. People are less inclined to boycott ALL their favorite artists and writers.

That's crazy there's an origin for the "END IS NIGH" sign. Even Barry Allen's bow tie got an origin.
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#601108 - 10/01/12 04:16 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Gerald]
Lawson Offline
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Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
I do wonder if Darwyn Cooke, Amanda Conner, Jim Lee, Len Wein, J. Michael Strawhewihacki, Joe Kubert Jr. and the other original BEFORE WATCHMEN "talent" didn't ask DC Comics for cover.

They were getting crap on the Internet and in interviews. They were scabs. The money was great, sure, but they had a scarlet letter, A for asshole, on their chests.

So DC said don't worry, we'll get everyone who works for us to contribute something -- a variant cover, a backup tale, a post card, whatever. We'll all be scabs. I am Spartacus! They can't boycott the whole DC lineup, right?

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#601109 - 10/01/12 05:29 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Lawson]
Gerald Offline
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Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1108
It's very interesting how these corporations go about things in order to sway public opinion. There's no way to be sure if getting fan favorites new and old to contribute variant covers and what not is an attempt to spread the shame around so it ends up lessening it. I mean, they've been doing every-other-issue variant covers for the last 5 years atleast. But it sounds possible when taking into account the BW writers who have gone out of their way to spread misinformation about Alan Moore's situation with DC.

The irony is especially sad when you have Jim Lee who left Marvel to help co-found Image, supposedly in order to champion creator rights, giving interviews talking down on Alan Moore.

I wasn't totally opposed to the IDEA of a DC produced Watchmen prequel because I can see where they are coming from, to a degree. The deal was the rights would revert to Moore when it was out of print. But like Maus, DKR, and V for Vendetta, they have been popular enough to stay in print. And although I agree with Alan Moore for the most part, I don't agree with SOME of his accusations or reasonings. So had they just done a Minutemen prequel by Darwyn Cooke I might even have bought it with some reservation.

But what they actually did makes them look like they'd do anything for a dollar. Everything from Watchmen toasters, to getting the talent to spread lies about the actual creator, churning out 35+ issues prequel (and more!) to a 12 issue story, etc.

But it's good reading the latest news about Before Watchmen because it helps to remind me why I shouldn't buy their comics. Sometimes I forget why I'm not buying DC (or Marvel for that matter). It's been awhile since I read Didio back up DC's consistently late comics with, his who-cares-they'll-buy-'em-anyways comment. And I had forgotten about the "drawing the line at 2.99" promotion that failed to mention how they were cutting the page count from 22 to 21.


Edited by Gerald (10/01/12 05:34 PM)
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#601110 - 10/01/12 07:13 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Lawson]
Allen Montgomery Offline
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7087
Originally Posted By: Lawson
the Wall of Shame soon will include most working comics pros, I'm afraid.

Very few of them have actually created intellectual properties of any weight. Joe Kubert and Len Wein notwithstanding, the only significant name on the list thus far is Mike Allred.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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