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#601111 - 10/01/12 07:25 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Gerald Offline
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Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1108
Mike Allred did a cover!?
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#601112 - 10/01/12 10:28 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Gerald]
Peter Urkowitz Offline
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Regarding the theory that the BW variant covers are meant to provide any kind of moral cover, I can see how that might appeal to the artists and writers on the books, possibly. But I can't see that being any part of the DC editorial strategy. They seem pretty well inured to any kind of shame. So, nah, the variant covers are just the same blatant cash grab that variant covers always are.

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#601118 - 10/02/12 10:14 AM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Lawson]
MBunge Offline
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Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 3386
Loc: Waterloo, Iowa, United States
Originally Posted By: Lawson
So DC said don't worry, we'll get everyone who works for us to contribute something -- a variant cover, a backup tale, a post card, whatever. We'll all be scabs.


Wait. Either the combined fury of all the BW-hating Lawsons on the intertubes is so terrible as to reduce veteran comic creators to quivering masses of jelly OR creators are so indifferent to it that other artists are willing to jump on BW even after the "you raped Alan Moore" hate is in full swing. It kinda has to be one or the other.

Mike

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#601119 - 10/02/12 10:52 AM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: MBunge]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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The only opinions that matter to the BW contributors are those of whoever's writing the paychecks. A few of them might have some personal axe to grind with Moore (Len Wein, John Higgins, Boleslav Sienkiewicz); some of the older guys might not see the big deal with the original work (Garcia-Lopez, Kubert the Elder, Steranko); and at least one of them wants to be Alan Moore (Straczynski); but the bottom line reason these people are jumping in the pool is because they're being paid a crazy page rate. I'd be genuinely surprised if DC is even making any money on BW right now.
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#601122 - 10/02/12 11:48 AM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Lawson Offline
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Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Very few of them have actually created intellectual properties of any weight. Joe Kubert and Len Wein notwithstanding, the only significant name on the list thus far is Mike Allred.


True.

I used to use the term "creators" to refer to the writers and artists who make comics.

Recently, I've reconsidered.

If we're discussing American superhero comics -- which is what dominates the market -- then there are few creators. There are men (it's nearly always men) who have agreed to crank out work-for-hire schlock featuring the creations of other men, most of whom were poorly compensated decades ago at the time of creation.

For that privilege, the men are paid a wage by multi-billion-dollar international media conglomerates. After a few years, tastes change a bit, characters are rebooted slightly and the men are let go. Then we can hear them kvetch endlessly about how they were cynically used and exploited, how Disney and Time Warner did not truly respect the creative process, did not even honor their contracts, and how this very much surprised them. Having heard the stories of what happened to Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster, and Jack Kirby, and Marv Wolfman, and Tony Isabella, and Steve Gerber, and so forth, they honestly thought they would be the exception to the rule.

Anyway, whether it's Darwyn Cooke or Andy Hughes or Andy Kubert or JMS, no, we're not talking about comics creators.

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#601123 - 10/02/12 12:21 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Lawson]
MBunge Offline
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Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 3386
Loc: Waterloo, Iowa, United States
Originally Posted By: Lawson
. There are men (it's nearly always men) who have agreed to crank out work-for-hire schlock featuring the creations of other men, most of whom were poorly compensated decades ago at the time of creation.


And this list includes, off the top of my head....

Roger Stern.
Bill Mantlo.
John Byrne.
Peter David.
Roy Thomas.
Steve Englehart.
Steve Gerber.
Grant Morrison.
John Romita, Sr.
John Romita, Jr.
Gary Friedrich.
Jim Starlin.
Carmine Infantino.
Mike Grell.
Walt Simonson.
Howard Chaykin.
George Perez.
Marv Wolfman.
Gail Simone.
Denny O'Neil.
Gardner Fox.
Cary Bates.
Gerry Conway.
And, of course, Alan Moore.

Mike

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#601124 - 10/02/12 12:39 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: MBunge]
Lawson Offline
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Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
True, and true about Alan Moore.

But some of those men, including Moore, actually have created characters, have produced original comics. Some did it before or after their work-for-hire stints; others juggled the two sides of their career.

Just to cite a few from your list, Howard Chaykin, Mike Grell, Jim Starlin and Steve Gerber all created some of their own work, as well as doing work-for-hire at the Big Two. I don't really have a problem, then, describing them as "creators."

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#601125 - 10/02/12 12:44 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Lawson]
MBunge Offline
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Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 3386
Loc: Waterloo, Iowa, United States
Originally Posted By: Lawson
Just to cite a few from your list, Howard Chaykin, Mike Grell, Jim Starlin and Steve Gerber all created some of their own work, as well as doing work-for-hire at the Big Two. I don't really have a problem, then, describing them as "creators."


I'm pretty sure ALL of the folks on that list created new characters and concepts during their time laboring in the salt mines of the Big 2.

Mike

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#601126 - 10/02/12 12:49 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: MBunge]
Lawson Offline
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Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Very few of them have actually created intellectual properties of any weight.


Originally Posted By: MBunge
I'm pretty sure ALL of the folks on that list created new characters and concepts during their time laboring in the salt mines of the Big 2.

Mike


Not sure where you're going with this, but I'll bite. While working for DC or Marvel, what intellectual properties of any weight has Gail Simone created? John Romita Jr.?

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#601127 - 10/02/12 01:02 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Lawson]
Jimbo Offline
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Registered: 07/13/01
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Loc: New Zealand/Canada
From today's OVC.

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