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#601167 - 10/04/12 02:27 AM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Ted Kilvington]
Charles Reece Offline
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Registered: 08/18/99
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I had a debate with someone on this site about whether Moore was a creator, but I forget who. Seems to me, he's ever bit as creative as Kirby. If one caveman straps a stone onto a stick to crush some nuts and another comes along and starts fighting off enemies with the same design, both are creators. Otherwise, to be logically consistent, Kirby will lose his creator status to myths, pop fiction and Action Comics.
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#601168 - 10/04/12 10:06 AM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Lawson]
MBunge Offline
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Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 3386
Loc: Waterloo, Iowa, United States
Originally Posted By: Lawson
I use the word "creator" my own way. I've explained how. Others are free to disagree. I'm not the noun police.


So, is Shakespeare a "creator"? George Lucas? Todd McFarlane? Cecil B. DeMille? Hitchcock? Any of the folks involved with Star Trek: The Next Generation? How about the makers of The Magnificent Seven? Is Mel Brooks a "creator" for THE PRODUCERS but not for YOUNG FRANKENSTEIN?

You are, of course, free to use the word as you wish. It seems fairly clear to me, however, that you're using the word in a cramped and myopic fashion.

Mike

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#601169 - 10/04/12 11:53 AM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Lawson]
Strenuous Teddy Offline
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Registered: 11/29/05
Posts: 361
So Lawson you mean to say that professionally and legally speaking original works and derivative works aren't the same thing and that depending on the trajectory of their career paths professionals might have very different interests at stake in this context? And that those interests might have a direct bearing on how a professional comes down on an issue like Before Watchmen? And that in the future you will choose to adopt a usage that you feel better highlights these differences rather than a broad general usage that you believe tends to obscure them? Scandalous.

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#601170 - 10/04/12 12:09 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Strenuous Teddy]
MBunge Offline
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Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 3386
Loc: Waterloo, Iowa, United States
Originally Posted By: Strenuous Teddy
So Lawson you mean to say that professionally and legally speaking original works and derivative works aren't the same thing and that depending on the trajectory of their career paths professionals might have very different interests at stake in this context?


So, Steve Ditko is a "creator" when he's doing Spider-Man at Marvel, but "not a creator" when he's doing Blue Beetle at Charlton? Peter David is "not a creator" when he's does the Hulk but is a "creator" when he does Fallen Angel but "not a creator" when he writes a Star Trek: Next Gen novel but is a "creator" when he writes a Star Trek: Excalibur novel? Is Kurt Busiek a "creator" when he does Astro City?

Mike


Edited by MBunge (10/04/12 02:17 PM)

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#601171 - 10/04/12 01:44 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: MBunge]
Ceci n'est pas une chaussette Offline
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Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 2840
Are we really to believe that one person can do two different things in one career?

I mean really! Two things! The very idea!
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#601172 - 10/04/12 01:47 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: MBunge]
Jimbo Offline
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Registered: 07/13/01
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A creator is someone who creates. It's not complicated.
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#601173 - 10/04/12 02:25 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Jimbo]
MBunge Offline
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Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 3386
Loc: Waterloo, Iowa, United States
Originally Posted By: Jimbo
A creator is someone who creates. It's not complicated.


What does it mean to create, though. Joss Whedon is the creator of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, yet its Wiki page lists about two dozen other writers involved in the show to one extent or another. Are any of them "creators" or are they just craftsman? Does anyone think the only original ideas on that show came from Whedon?

The concept of the creator shouldn't be complicated. A definition of the term that says the folks who made The Human Centipede are creators but the people responsible for The Magnificent Seven are not, does seem to make both the concept and its value a bit cloudy.

Mike

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#601174 - 10/04/12 02:40 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: MBunge]
Allen Montgomery Offline
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7086
Who created Wolverine?

Len Wein came up with the name and his being Canadian.

Herb Trimpe came up with the first costume.

Gil Kane inadvertently came up with the distinctive mask.

Dave Cockrum came up with his goofy haircut.

John Byrne put the claws in his arms, not in the gloves.

Roger Stern made him a murderer.

Chris Claremont made him a ninja.

(and that's about where I gave up on the character)
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#601175 - 10/04/12 03:34 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Mr. Socko Offline
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Registered: 11/22/04
Posts: 500
And the colorist made choices that created a mood or tone for the comic, so the colorist is a creator.

The letterer's choices of fonts and style are creative choices, so the letter is a creator.

And if the editor contributes ideas or plot requirements, he's a creator too.

The publisher and EIC created the environment that made the comic possible, so they should both be included as creators.

The paper production company made the actual paper the comic is printed on, so the employees there are creators.

And the readers create the demand for the comic -- it wouldn't even exist if there were no one to buy it -- so let's pat ourselves on the backs because we're all creators as well.

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#601176 - 10/04/12 03:38 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Mr. Socko]
MBunge Offline
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Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 3386
Loc: Waterloo, Iowa, United States
Originally Posted By: Mr. Socko
And the colorist made choices that created a mood or tone for the comic, so the colorist is a creator.

The letterer's choices of fonts and style are creative choices, so the letter is a creator.

And if the editor contributes ideas or plot requirements, he's a creator too.

The publisher and EIC created the environment that made the comic possible, so they should both be included as creators.

The paper production company made the actual paper the comic is printed on, so the employees there are creators.

And the readers create the demand for the comic -- it wouldn't even exist if there were no one to buy it -- so let's pat ourselves on the backs because we're all creators as well.


Thanks for illustrating how important it is to have a useful and sensible definition of what "creator" means. I know that's not what you meant to do, but even inadvertent positive contributions are welcome.

Mike

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