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#601177 - 10/04/12 04:01 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: MBunge]
Mr. Socko Offline
Member

Registered: 11/22/04
Posts: 500
Originally Posted By: MBunge
Thanks for illustrating how important it is to have a useful and sensible definition of what "creator" means.


My pleasure.


Originally Posted By: MBunge
I know that's not what you meant to do


Actually, that's exactly what I meant to do. But I understand if you didn't get it.

Do you think you'll have any luck getting comics publishers to adopt your definition of creator? It would be interesting to see "Superman created by..." credits that list every such creator that contributed to the character.

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#601178 - 10/04/12 04:11 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Mr. Socko]
MBunge Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 3386
Loc: Waterloo, Iowa, United States
Originally Posted By: Mr. Socko
Do you think you'll have any luck getting comics publishers to adopt your definition of creator? It would be interesting to see "Superman created by..." credits that list every such creator that contributed to the character.



1. Well, it's not my definition of creator. It's the definition of pretty much everybody.

2. In case you haven't noticed, the credits do list the people who CREATED that issue. So, I guess the publishers agree with me and pretty much everybody else...or at least they have since Stan shamed others into it back in the 1960s.

Mike

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#601179 - 10/04/12 04:44 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: MBunge]
Mr. Socko Offline
Member

Registered: 11/22/04
Posts: 500
Originally Posted By: MBunge
the credits do list the people who CREATED that issue.


Do you have any examples in which the comic credits specify the writer, penciller, inker, etc., as creators?

The credits I see, from DC and Marvel, list the writers, artists, colorists, letterers, editors, and others who contributed to the comic by their specific roles. The creator credit appears to be reserved for those identified as creating the specific character or title.


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#601180 - 10/04/12 04:50 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Mr. Socko]
MBunge Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 3386
Loc: Waterloo, Iowa, United States
Originally Posted By: Mr. Socko
Originally Posted By: MBunge
the credits do list the people who CREATED that issue.


Do you have any examples in which the comic credits specify the writer, penciller, inker, etc., as creators?

The credits I see, from DC and Marvel, list the writers, artists, colorists, letterers, editors, and others who contributed to the comic by their specific roles. The creator credit appears to be reserved for those identified as creating the specific character or title.



So, you're telling me you've never seen a comic book where the writer and artist are referred to as "creators"? You've never heard anyone from Marvel or DC every use the term "creators" to refer to their writers and artists? Really? Do you actually read comics?

You can keep going with this logic, though I should point out that it makes you very much like some right wing preacher who proclaims that women who give birth out of wedlock shouldn't be called mothers. If that's the kind of company you like to keep, go right ahead.

Mike

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#601181 - 10/04/12 05:13 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: MBunge]
Ceci n'est pas une chaussette Offline
Member

Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 2840
Originally Posted By: MBunge
So, you're telling me you've never seen a comic book where the writer and artist are referred to as "creators"? You've never heard anyone from Marvel or DC every use the term "creators" to refer to their writers and artists?


I, for one, can't imagine a world where DC and Marvel overly aggrandize their product. The very idea is ludicrous.

Quote:
You can keep going with this logic, though I should point out that it makes you very much like some right wing preacher who proclaims that women who give birth out of wedlock shouldn't be called mothers. If that's the kind of company you like to keep, go right ahead.


Well, that's the kind of absurd reduction Hitler would have made.
_________________________
"When one says 'Africa,' it refers to Africa in the Euro-colonized sense, not the damn bush country or whatever."
- Ed Gauthier, DCP

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#601182 - 10/04/12 05:26 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: MBunge]
Mr. Socko Offline
Member

Registered: 11/22/04
Posts: 500
Originally Posted By: MBunge
So, you're telling me you've never seen a comic book where the writer and artist are referred to as "creators"?


No, I'm telling you that I can't think of any examples of a DC or Marvel comic in which the writer or artist is listed in the credits as a creator, if that writer or artist wasn't involved in originating the character or title. It looks like the mainstream comics industry reserves the credit of creator for those who conceived of and invented a specific character, group, or title.

If you have an example of a DC or Marvel comic that credits a writer or artist, working on a title they did not originate, as creators, I would be genuinely interested in seeing that.



Originally Posted By: MBunge
Do you actually read comics?


I do, thanks for asking. But not many DC or Marvel comics these days, so I'm hoping that you, who appear to be more familiar with current DC and Marvel product, could provide an example of this liberal use of the term creator, which you claim is used by publishers, you, and pretty much everyone else.


Originally Posted By: MBunge
I should point out that it makes you very much like some right wing preacher who proclaims that women who give birth out of wedlock shouldn't be called mothers. If that's the kind of company you like to keep, go right ahead.


I would be interested in hearing you elaborate upon this comparison, Mike.

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#601183 - 10/04/12 05:53 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Mr. Socko]
MBunge Offline
Member

Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 3386
Loc: Waterloo, Iowa, United States
Originally Posted By: Mr. Socko
Originally Posted By: MBunge
So, you're telling me you've never seen a comic book where the writer and artist are referred to as "creators"?


No, I'm telling you that I can't think of any examples of a DC or Marvel comic in which the writer or artist is listed in the credits as a creator, if that writer or artist wasn't involved in originating the character or title. It looks like the mainstream comics industry reserves the credit of creator for those who conceived of and invented a specific character, group, or title.

If you have an example of a DC or Marvel comic that credits a writer or artist, working on a title they did not originate, as creators, I would be genuinely interested in seeing that.



Originally Posted By: MBunge
Do you actually read comics?


I do, thanks for asking. But not many DC or Marvel comics these days, so I'm hoping that you, who appear to be more familiar with current DC and Marvel product, could provide an example of this liberal use of the term creator, which you claim is used by publishers, you, and pretty much everyone else.


Originally Posted By: MBunge
I should point out that it makes you very much like some right wing preacher who proclaims that women who give birth out of wedlock shouldn't be called mothers. If that's the kind of company you like to keep, go right ahead.


I would be interested in hearing you elaborate upon this comparison, Mike.


When people write and draw and comic books, pretty much every reasonable person understands that they "created" that comic book. They created the words, the images and the story. As such, most reasonable people would refer to them as "comic book creators", even if the book in question was work-for-hire utilizing previously established characters and concepts.

Now, if you want to pronounce in a dickishly pedantic fashion that "They didn't create that comic, they just wrote and drew it", I suppose that's not a completely indefensible opinion. It's just one that pretty much every reasonable person would understand as dickishly pedantic.

However, feigning ignorance of the many, many times when work-for-hire writers and artists have been referred to as "comic book creators" by fans, other pros, editors and publishers is another step beyond just dickishly pendantic.

Of course, if you're willing to sign a legally binding contract that I'll get everything you currently own and 50% of all your future earnings if I can find an instance of work-for-hire comic book writers and/or artists being referred to as "creators" within the credits of a comic, I'll get right on it. If not, I really don't feel like wasting that much time trying to satisfy such a dickishly pendatic requirement. You know work-for-hire pros have been commonly referred to as "creators". I know. Everyone who reads this thread knows it.

And I'm sure you can get the analogy. Just think a little bit harder about it.

Mike


Edited by MBunge (10/04/12 05:55 PM)

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#601184 - 10/04/12 06:01 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: MBunge]
Mr. Socko Offline
Member

Registered: 11/22/04
Posts: 500
So...no examples, then?


Originally Posted By: MBunge
And I'm sure you can get the analogy. Just think a little bit harder about it.Mike


I try, but it keeps making me laugh.

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#601188 - 10/06/12 04:38 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Mr. Socko]
Lawson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
To Mike: I think it's OK if we all use the word "creator" our own way. Nobody is telling you otherwise.

(To Ceci, Socko, Allen and Charles: *Tee-hee!* I've made all the arrangements with Rick Veitch and Steve Conley! The next time Mike uses the word "creator" inappropriately, he's banned from the site and his computer explodes. It's amazing what the tech boys can do with cookies these days.)

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#601189 - 10/06/12 05:06 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: MBunge]
Allen Montgomery Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7091
Originally Posted By: MBunge
And I'm sure you can get the analogy.

Emphasis on the "anal".
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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