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#601209 - 10/08/12 12:48 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: MBunge]
Lawson Offline
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Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Originally Posted By: MBunge
So, no one can be called a creator unless they've indy published their own stuff?

Mike


It doesn't have to be indie-published.

Jack Kirby created entire universes under the aegis of Marvel and DC. Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster created the original superhero and sold it to DC. Siegel went on to create more characters at DC, including the Spectre.

Marv Wolfman created or co-created many characters at DC and Marvel.

Kirby, Siegel, Shuster, Wolfman -- all of them are creators. They expanded the toy box.

And so forth, and so on.

Now, as a rule, the guys who created characters at the Big Two didn't enjoy much financial reward when their characters went on to sell a lot of comics, toys, games, TV shows and movies. Which is depressing and offensive, and as a result, not many writers and artists want to give their new ideas to Marvel and DC anymore. Entirely understandable.

But no, you don't have to be in the indie world to be a creator.

From a personal standpoint, though, it might be wise.

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#601210 - 10/08/12 12:54 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: MBunge]
Ceci n'est pas une chaussette Offline
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Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 2840
Originally Posted By: Lawson
I use the word "creator" to describe the people working on a comic who actually created the character(s) in that comic -- say, Stan Lee and Jack Kirby on the first 105 issues of FANTASTIC FOUR


Originally Posted By: MBunge
So, no one can be called a creator unless they've indy published their own stuff?


God help the boy, Mike is just not very bright.
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#601211 - 10/08/12 01:18 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Lawson]
MBunge Offline
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Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 3386
Loc: Waterloo, Iowa, United States
Originally Posted By: Lawson
Originally Posted By: MBunge
So, no one can be called a creator unless they've indy published their own stuff?

Mike


It doesn't have to be indie-published.

Jack Kirby created entire universes under the aegis of Marvel and DC. Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster created the original superhero and sold it to DC. Siegel went on to create more characters at DC, including the Spectre.

Marv Wolfman created or co-created many characters at DC and Marvel.

Kirby, Siegel, Shuster, Wolfman -- all of them are creators. They expanded the toy box.

And so forth, and so on.

Now, as a rule, the guys who created characters at the Big Two didn't enjoy much financial reward when their characters went on to sell a lot of comics, toys, games, TV shows and movies. Which is depressing and offensive, and as a result, not many writers and artists want to give their new ideas to Marvel and DC anymore. Entirely understandable.

But no, you don't have to be in the indie world to be a creator.

From a personal standpoint, though, it might be wise.


Okay, so let's be clear. Rather than broadly redefining what "creator" means in comic book terms, you're really just saying that hacks who never produce or add anything new to their work, simply reusing and rehashing what others have done before, don't really deserve to be called "creators"? 'Cause I'd more or less agree.

However, that did not appear to be what you were arguing when you were lumping guys like Peter David, the Romitas and John Buscema into the "not-a-creator" category.

Mike


Edited by MBunge (10/08/12 01:19 PM)

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#601212 - 10/08/12 01:29 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: MBunge]
Lawson Offline
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Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Originally Posted By: MBunge
Okay, so let's be clear. Rather than broadly redefining what "creator" means in comic book terms, you're really just saying that hacks who never produce or add anything new to their work, simply reusing and rehashing what others have done before, don't really deserve to be called "creators"? 'Cause I'd more or less agree.

However, that did not appear to be what you were arguing when you were lumping guys like Peter David, the Romitas and John Buscema into the "not-a-creator" category.

Mike


I'm not really a Marvel guy -- only in recent years have I gone back and read the classic Silver Age Marvel stories (thank you, cheap paperback Marvel Masterworks) -- so I'm afraid I can't speak with authority about what men like John Romita Sr. and John Buscema brought to the comics they drew, comics like AMAZING SPIDER-MAN and THE AVENGERS.

They were fine artists. I enjoyed their comics. That's about all I'm qualified to say.

If they introduced some notable characters -- heroes, villains, supporting cast members, characters still in use today or in recent times -- then hell, sure, we can call them creators. Whoever created the Vision in THE AVENGERS, that counts. Whoever created Hawkeye -- Black Widow -- that sort of thing -- they're creators.

I don't think that writing or drawing a perfectly fine run on THE AVENGERS makes you a creator. It makes you a writer or an artist.

I loved what Frank Miller and David Mazzucchelli did on BATMAN: YEAR ONE. But they didn't create Batman or James Gordon or Catwoman or anything else. They reinterpreted the stories of other creators. On that particular project, they were not creators. Both men have, however, elsewhere, created their own stuff.

And I dunno that creating anything makes you a creator. Lord knows this is imprecise -- everyone has their own judgment -- but I'd argue that your character should be notable, someone reasonably well known to fans of the title, someone who is still around or who had an impact. Lots of Marvel comics had forgettable villains who appeared in one issue. That doesn't really count. The Vision counts.

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#601213 - 10/08/12 02:10 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Lawson]
Jimbo Offline
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Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 2751
Loc: New Zealand/Canada
Originally Posted By: Lawson


And I dunno that creating anything makes you a creator. Lord knows this is imprecise -- everyone has their own judgment -- but I'd argue that your character should be notable, someone reasonably well known to fans of the title, someone who is still around or who had an impact. Lots of Marvel comics had forgettable villains who appeared in one issue. That doesn't really count. The Vision counts.


I was kind of with you up until this. If someone writes Batman, with a story featuring Batman, Alfred, Robin and some new character who's never appeared before and will never appear again -let's call it 'Character X'- then that writer is a creator. Whether or not someone can be called a creator is by no means determined by the popularity of their creation. What if someone writes a story for a writing class, did they not create the characters in their story?

Naturally we are all welcome to make our own definitions of what a 'creator' is, as we are all just as welcome to make definitions of any other word. I'm all for artistic (creative?) license, but I also think this conversation is wildly over complicating what is or isn't a creator. As I said before, a creator is someone who creates. The only way to really differentiate is to add a stipulation, not use the term so broadly. Rather than saying "Joe Shuster is a creator" we would say "Joe Shuster is the creator of Superman".

Heck, even someone who writes a story with no new characters can be called a creator, because they created that story.
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#601214 - 10/08/12 02:14 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Lawson]
MBunge Offline
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Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 3386
Loc: Waterloo, Iowa, United States
Originally Posted By: Lawson
I'd argue that your character should be notable, someone reasonably well known to fans of the title, someone who is still around or who had an impact. Lots of Marvel comics had forgettable villains who appeared in one issue. That doesn't really count. The Vision counts.



So, are you a journalist if your reporting isn't notable, reasonably well known to the public or had an "impact" on anything? Are you a scientist if your research isn't notable, reasonably well known to the public or had an impact on anything?

With all due respect, Lawson, you're just being a dick about this. I mean, saying that ACTUALLY CREATING A NEW CHARACTER doesn't make you a "creator" unless that creation reaches some level of public acceptance is a fairly silly standard. If that's the bar to get over, the overwhelming majority of people in all fields of the arts don't qualify as creators. Playwrights, musicians, sculptors, painters, etc. Almost none of them are creators by your lights. By that standard, most engineers aren't "engineers" and most architects aren't "architects".

Mike


Edited by MBunge (10/08/12 02:16 PM)

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#601216 - 10/08/12 02:33 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Lawson]
Mr. Socko Offline
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#601217 - 10/08/12 02:39 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Mr. Socko]
Allen Montgomery Offline
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7082
I never thought I'd be expectantly waiting for the next issue of Before Watchmen so I can try to inject some degree of value back into this thread.
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#601218 - 10/08/12 02:49 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: MBunge]
Lawson Offline
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Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Originally Posted By: MBunge
So, are you a journalist if your reporting isn't notable, reasonably well known to the public or had an "impact" on anything? Are you a scientist if your research isn't notable, reasonably well known to the public or had an impact on anything?

Mike


Depends on whom you ask, I suppose. I'd say you are what you do. You're a journalist if you're engaged in the business of journalism -- reporting on news. You're a scientist if you're engaged in scientific research. You're a musician if you're engaged in the making of music.

If you write or draw a comic book, you're a comic book writer or artist.

Again, just my loose definitions.

I'm a journalist. For decades now I've made a living, and more recently supported a family, banging out stories as a writer. But I'm not a creator. I work in nonfiction. (Some critics may take issue with the last two sentences.) If I ever get around to writing the great American novel, I'll be a creator.

Originally Posted By: MBunge
Lawson, you're just being a dick about this.


Sorry you think I'm being a dick about this.

Honestly, I have great respect for talented writers and artists regardless of whether they added something notable and new or not.

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#601219 - 10/08/12 02:51 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Mr. Socko]
Lawson Offline
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Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Originally Posted By: Mr. Socko


Har! laugh

That's gotten thrown in my face twice lately.

In another place, a buddy and I were praising Daredevil and Batman origin stories written by Frank Miller and drawn by John Romita Jr. and David Mazzucchelli, respectively.

Then, separately, roundly criticizing BEFORE WATCHMEN, I showed them a copy of this cartoon that you had posted at Comicon.

And some wise-ass immediately quoted back to me my praise for the Daredevil and Batman origin stories!

I'll have to amend my rule to say after-the-fact origin stories by guys other than the creators totally suck, unless they don't. grin

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