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#601522 - 12/05/12 01:12 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Gerald]
Allen Montgomery Offline
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7071
Ozymandias #4...

Page one, Veidt is offended by a group of villains calling themselves the Flying Tigers: "An insufferable INSULT to one of the bravest, most NOBLE groups of fighting men who ever lived!" I wonder if Wein even understands the irony.

Page two, Veidt has Wolverine claws in his gauntlets and leaves the villains tied up (in his "signature Gordian Knot") like Spider-Man's modus operandi.

Page three, more JFK Gump-isms.

Page four, revisit of Doctor Manhattan's gruesome raid on Moloch's club.

Page five, *Bobby* Kennedy Gump-isms.

Page six, Hollis apparently unmasked on *Live TV*, giving not only his name but also his address. So stupid.

Page seven, Marilyn Monroe murder Gump-isms.

Page eight, Cuban missile crisis Gump-isms.

Page nine, giving actual dialogue to the notion that a little domino mask would conceal anyone's identity.

Pages ten and eleven, the president consults Veidt on what to do about the Cuban missile crisis.

Page twelve, JFK and Oswald assassinations. Almost no reference to either the Zapruder film or the famous photo of Jack Ruby shooting Oswald. Use of the word "allegedly" and the phrase "according to the evidence" in reference to Oswald actually being the shooter.

Page thirteen, Veidt fails to find any evidence that Oswald wasn't the shooter.

Pages fourteen and fifteen, "introducing" Nite Owl II and Rorschach. Wein clearly has no story to tell.

Pages sixteen and seventeen, the secret origin of the "Nostalgia" perfume. I think this is a reference to Veidt's girlfriend that died in issue #1, but I don't care enough to go back and check.

Page eighteen, "introducing" Silk Spectre II.

Pages nineteen through twenty-one, literally a verbatim regurgitation of the "Crimebusters" meeting.

As light as the backgrounds were in previous issues, they're practically non-existant this time out. I don't know Lee's reputation with regard to speed, but if he's not getting burned out then he's just getting bored.



Alt cover by Michael Kaluta. His drawing skills have really faltered in the past few years, to the point that I think that he might be experiencing some medical issues. If it comes to light that he is, I may reconsider my decision to boycott his future work.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
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#601523 - 12/05/12 02:24 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Allen Montgomery Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7071
Silk Spectre #4...

Interesting that this took almost three months to come out. The art is pretty detailed (albeit still that shitty Arthur-Adams-does-Archie flavor), so maybe it's Amanda Conner's fault, but it's also possible that DC was just trying to stretch this thing out. Who knows. Anyway, it's the end of the "Laurie runs off to San Francisco" arc, so I'm thinking this is the last issue. I can't remember how many issues this mini is supposed to be. Some were four, some were six.

Several variations on the nine-panel grid: leaving the borders off for flashbacks, doing six across for fast action cuts, overlaps for montages.

In the final showdown with Frank Sinatra (the guy behind the drug plot inducing kids to buy stuff, which was the same plot as the Josie & The Pussycats movie, by the way) Laurie gets the smiley face blood spatter on her own face, then loses the movie boots when she stabs Sinatra in the jugular with one of the heels.

Secret origin of the Watchmen-era costume, reference to the "Gold Bear" candy a year before it came out in America, and it all ends with... anybody? anybody? Yep, the Crimebusters meeting revisited. Again. The final splash page is kinda weird: Laurie and the cuddliest rendition of Doctor Manhattan ever, seen across the lap of Eddie Blake. Bizarre.



Alt cover by Bruce Timm, who we already knew was an unoriginal wank.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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#601532 - 12/07/12 11:12 AM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: MBunge]
MBunge Offline
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Registered: 07/19/01
Posts: 3386
Loc: Waterloo, Iowa, United States
The latest issue of COMEDIAN continues Brian Azzarello's self-humiliation. I guess that most folks would give JMS the raspberry for the worst BW book for his hilariously bad NITE OWL, but at least there's a "so bad it's good" aspect to that. Azz' work here is just pitiful, though. He doesn't understand the character and his attempt to do social/historical commentary is like something you'd get in a C+ high school report.

The only positive about it is that it illustrates a criticism I've had of modern (in the last 10-15 years) comics for a long while. This stuff gets praised to high heaven for being more adult and sophisticated than the all ages/for kids comics of the past. Yet when you compare it to actual adult literature and storytelling in books, movies and such, these comics often stink out loud.

Mike

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#601533 - 12/07/12 12:01 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: MBunge]
Ceci n'est pas une chaussette Offline
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Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 2840
So out of curiosity, how much time and/or money did you manage to spend learning this lesson?
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#601574 - 12/12/12 03:27 AM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Public Account Offline
Junior member

Registered: 07/02/06
Posts: 9
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
I don't begrudge craftsmen for not being creators. One of my very favorite comics when I was a kid was O'Neill & Adams' Green Lantern/Green Arrow, after all. But I thought the issues of ownership and control were addressed in the 80's. Yet here we still are with Neal Adams drawing Batman and the X-Men.



And this.


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#601575 - 12/12/12 04:39 AM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Public Account]
Allen Montgomery Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7071
Ouch. The guy who went to bat for Siegel and Shuster takes a giant shit on Alan Moore.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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#601576 - 12/12/12 06:56 AM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Allen Montgomery Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7071
Comedian #4...

I don't know what to say about this one. The "story" is a complete mish-mash of self-important nonsense. Just Blake wandering around Vietnam and barking. Maybe it will make sense when the whole thing is done, but I doubt it.

Functional art by Jones is getting noticeably more sparse and the inks are getting rougher. One panel is of particular interest, however, in that it is just one giant sound effect (BLAAM). They've used sound effects in prior issues (and one other time this issue). It's just interesting to me because of how Moore and Gibbons purposely eschewed sound effects entirely, and yet here's a panel of nothing but a sound effect (with the colorist doing some spatter on it).


Alt cover by Brian Stelfreeze, who hasn't done anything of note in twenty years.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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#601577 - 12/12/12 07:47 AM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Allen Montgomery Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7071
Minutemen #5...

The bulk of this issue is a heretofore unknown episode about a Japanese plot in 1947 to blow up the Statue of Liberty as revenge for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Even though the government swept it under the rug, this event was apparently the reason the Doomsday Clock was set up. Everything's got to have a *SECRET ORIGIN*, I suppose.

More blah art, the same problem from previous issues with meandering in and out of the nine-panel layout. In what is perhaps the strangest riff on Gibbons' original artwork, Cooke samples a panel of Rorschach's case worker from the 80's and places that in a scene from 1955. Jarringly odd.

The circus scene with Hooded Justice from the end of #2 is continued. HJ was apparently a former Nazi and was involved in the Silhouette child abduction plot. It's amazing how complicated Cooke has made this puzzle that has so few pieces. Anyway, the revelation hasn't come out yet, but I think we're going to find out that HJ was killed by Hollis.

And speaking of revelations involving Hollis... This issue starts with more navel-gazing over his relationship with Sally. It is unambiguously shown that they were involved sexually, and it is even insinuated that Hollis is Laurie's father. In a weird way, I really do want them to do something so contradictory of that level which would unquestionably put to the lie the claim that these jerkoffs have any respect whatsoever for the original Watchmen material.


Alt cover by someone named Michael Cho, who I've never heard of before.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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#601583 - 12/13/12 04:47 AM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Gerald Offline
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Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1108
I don't like Hooded Justice as a former Nazi. It was more realistic in WATCHMEN that HJ was against the US getting involved because of his nationality or because he was an isolationist like some people at the time. But revealing he's just a bad guy is too simple. Why not say he worked for the Red Skull too?

*sigh*
For some reason Cooke's BW, although beautiful looking, feels like Savior No. 28. The artist on that book had a similar style, and it dealt with a golden age/silver age hero, but in the "real" world.
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#601642 - 12/21/12 03:56 AM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Gerald]
Allen Montgomery Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7071
Dr. Manhattan #3...

Straczynski has exactly one metaphor -- Schrodinger's Cat -- and he is flailing the shit out of it. Osterman becomes aware that he is now the "Quantum Observer" and all the seemingly contradictory events of the previous issues were merely his having eliminated every decision he ever made (as well as, inexplicably, a decision made by Captain Metropolis at the Crimebusters meeting... we just can't get enough of that Crimebusters meeting) and having created an infinite number of alternate realities in the process. How and at what point he gained this "Quantum Observer" status is not yet clear. Logically, there must have been a point where he had the power to alter the past, but was not aware that he was doing so.

The point of this issue seems to be that Osterman has become aware of what he was doing and has decided that now he must shepherd all the divergent realities back into the timeline Alan Moore wrote in the original Watchmen. Now, if you not only had the reality-manipulating powers of a god but could also alter the past, would you think the events as they unfolded in Watchmen was the absolute most preferable way for things to go? Even the exploding telepathic squid? If so, that pretty much relegates the poignant "Without condoning or condemning" line into a flat-out lie.

Also, it reminds me of that episode of Amazing Stories where the Elvis impersonator from the 1980's goes back in time and accidentally kills Elvis before the first recordings. The impersonator then lives out the rest of Elvis' life, even the drug-induced death. Oh, well. Maybe Doc will change it back to where Blake killed JFK and fathered Laurie.

Hughes and Martin's art is much better this time. Still a lot of repetition and recycling of panels, but it's more creatively done than in the first two issues. Something strange about the lettering that I hadn't picked up on before, though. It's obvious the word balloons are done in Illustrator, because they all have the same dent on one side and flat spot on the other. The balloons are scaled and stretched to accommodate more or less text, and sometimes they're flipped or rotated, but they're all copied from the same original shape. Somewhat distracting.

Alt cover by Neal Adams, as seen earlier in this thread. I don't know what Adams is thinking in contributing to this shitfest, but as we have witnessed before -- from his "Expanding Earth" theoretical bunk to his recent Batman craptacular -- the man has some serious issues going on in-between his earlobes.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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