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#600140 - 08/15/12 02:53 AM Re: Joe Kubert R.I.P. [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Jimbo Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 2751
Loc: New Zealand/Canada
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Originally Posted By: Lawson
The taxpayers pump about $500,000 a year into the place through federal financial aid. Looks like they accept most people who send in an application.

Kubert got his start in the Eisner sweat shop, which gave a chance to anybody who could trace a straight line. He could have done something like that, hiring these kids to make up a bullpen creating comics under his own publishing banner. But... that grant and loan money, y'know? Instead of his paying them to create comics, *they* could pay *him*. Brilliant!



I'm guessing you're being sarcastic, in which case: it actually is brilliant. If I thought of a way to get thousands of people to give me thousands of dollars to teach them whatever, I would. Wouldn't you?
_________________________
Walla Walla Bing Bang.

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#600141 - 08/15/12 03:33 AM Re: Joe Kubert R.I.P. [Re: Jimbo]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7087
Not like that, no. Playing people for suckers has never been my thing.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#600146 - 08/15/12 10:59 AM Re: Joe Kubert R.I.P. [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Lawson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
According to their FAQ page, they have a 100% placement rate. They fail to qualify this outrageous claim, but I'd assume they count a graduate who set up a booth at the flea market drawing cartoon likenesses one time as being employed.


Yeah, I'm gonna call bullshit on nearly any school that claims a 100 percent placement rate. I doubt that even Harvard and Yale can claim all of their graduates are successfully employed in their chosen fields within months of graduation -- certainly not in the current economy.

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#600147 - 08/15/12 12:21 PM Re: Joe Kubert R.I.P. [Re: Lawson]
MightyQuin Offline
Member

Registered: 01/26/02
Posts: 1069
Loc: Tallahassee,FL
Rick Veitch who was a student in Joe Kubert's school's first year of operation has, unsurprisingly, a remembrance of Joe. I wouldn't know if R.V.'s circumstances were unusual or even unique, but they do bespeak an uncommon generosity from Joe Kubert and his wife to him.

http://www.rickveitch.com/2012/08/13/remembering-joe-kubert/#comments

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#600148 - 08/15/12 12:50 PM Re: Joe Kubert R.I.P. [Re: MightyQuin]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7087
I have no doubt the man was nice. It's like the doctor who did my Dad's knee replacement surgeries. Super nice guy. He was there when Dad woke up, talked with us for a really long time, answered all our questions and allayed all our concerns. And then probably went out shopping for a new Mercedes-Benz with the $120,000 he just got paid for a morning's work.


Originally Posted By: Rick Veitch
I didn’t have a pot to piss in, much less the money for tuition. But Joe’s wife, Muriel, told me about a new government job training program called CETA. That summer I talked my way up the Vermont CETA hierarchy trying to convince them to pay for cartooning college. They were skeptical and couldn’t provide a decision before school went into session. I called Joe to let him know and he said “Come down anyway. I’ve spoken with Muriel and we’ll make it work somehow.”

Rick doesn't finish the story, but I'm guessing the Kuberts got paid.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#600149 - 08/15/12 04:06 PM Re: Joe Kubert R.I.P. [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Lawson Offline
Member

Registered: 11/11/02
Posts: 11978
Loc: Lexington, Ky.
By all accounts I've heard, Joe Kubert was a nice man. He certainly was one of the great comics artists.

But Allen's questions about the Joe Kubert School are interesting.

Seventy students at about $30,000 per year = $2.1 million a year, about one-fourth of which is federal tax money via Pell Grants and federally backed student loans.

Many private for-profit colleges (which is what we're talking about here) are ripoffs, as has been documented in the news lately, including a recent U.S. Senate investigation. They suck up millions in federal financial aid and produce unemployable schmoes, often deep in debt. Doonesbury recently has been calling them "publicly subsidized failure factories."

I dunno if this description fits the Kubert school or not.

I do know, according to its own numbers, reported to the feds, it accepts about nine of every ten applicants, so it ain't that choosy. Only 58 percent of the students who enrolled went on to graduate, so ... 42 percent fell out somewhere, having paid some money already.

And as Allen says, its Web site claims a 100 percent placement rate for its grads as of November 2009. That would be -- well, to be polite, that's impossible to believe. Conceivably, all of their graduates from that year's class were holding some sort of job somewhere, such as the midnight shift at Taco Bell, but -- that's not what the placement rate is supposed to suggest.

For context, for that same year, the University of Florida posted a placement rate of 45 percent for graduates going onto relevant jobs and 26 percent for graduates going onto more education. So a total of 71 percent of Florida grads had found placement somewhere successfully.

I'm gonna guess the Kubert school isn't more successful than Florida.

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#600150 - 08/15/12 05:22 PM Re: Joe Kubert R.I.P. reply from Mike Grell [Re: Lawson]
Alexander Ness Online   shocked
Member

Registered: 09/17/03
Posts: 3868
Loc: Minnesota
"From Mike Grell

4:19 PM (2 minutes ago)

Mr. Lawson and Mr. Montgomery spout opinions as fact while admitting they have no knowledge to base them on. Further demonstrating their ignorance, they criticize the school for being subsidized while charging tuition... like, oh, say, every university in the country. Perhaps they feel it would be more fair if it were free. But then you'd be stuck with instructors who worked for free, instead of the best talents in the industry. And they seem to object to the idea that Joe might have profited from the business he built out of nothing but a dream... and 35 years of labor. Gee, how unfair!

The Kubert School boasts a long list of famous alumni to prove its claims. As to the 9 out of 10 acceptance rate - no one applies to the Kubert School without having spent years drawing. It stands to reason that those who apply already have some skills and the placement rate speaks to the quality of instruction they're given.

IF Mr. Lawson and Mr. Montgomery intend to discuss this issue further, they should first arm themselves with the facts. If they'd like to discuss it with me in person, I suggest they simply arm themselves.

Mike Grell"

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#600151 - 08/15/12 06:18 PM Re: Joe Kubert R.I.P. reply from Mike Grell [Re: Alexander Ness]
shjonescrk Offline
Member

Registered: 10/31/03
Posts: 1351
Loc: Airdrie, Scotland
Is Mike Grell aware of who he's taking on? Grell vs Lawson - no contest!

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#600152 - 08/15/12 06:23 PM Re: Joe Kubert R.I.P. reply from Mike Grell [Re: shjonescrk]
Alexander Ness Online   shocked
Member

Registered: 09/17/03
Posts: 3868
Loc: Minnesota
I'd take Grell in any contest, in any challenge, in any setting.

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#600153 - 08/15/12 06:23 PM Re: Joe Kubert R.I.P. [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Stephen R Bissette Offline
Member

Registered: 11/27/98
Posts: 939
Loc: wilmington, VT USA
Suffice to say taking potshots at Joe Kubert within 24 hours of any of us finding out about Joe's passing hardly favors Mr. Montgomery as a human being. Best not to waste time, Mr. Montgomery.

Re: Mr. Montgomery's initial statement:
____

"But his "school?" Let's call it what it is: a reversal of the Eisner sweat shop model into a fleecing of deluded hopefuls. And let us not forget he is included in the list of willing contributors to Before Watchmen.

Talented man. Too bad he couldn't have been just that."
_____

Thanks for clarifying for me the true nature of the man I thought I knew (and foolishly loved) since 1976; that my own career was a delusion; that what I stupidly thought was an education that had me selling my first pro work (to HEAVY METAL, Scholastic, etc.) before the end of my senior year (of a two-year program) was actually a "fleecing" and a "sweat shop"; and that Joe's being a "willing contributor" to a project Mr. Montgomery personally finds objectionable qualifies him for verbally trashing and soundly demolishing the career and ethics of a man who accomplished more than most of us would ever come close to accomplishing in five lifetimes.

If Mr. Montgomery ever opens a school, I'll be the first to apply in hopes of perhaps salvaging what remains of my mongrel existence in time to measure up to some approximation of Mr. Montgomery's admirably high standards.

Sorry to see my being away from the comicon.com boards for another year prevented my engaging with Mr. Montgomery's enlightened world view sooner. Had I been paying proper attention, he might have ripped the blinders from my eyes earlier, allowing me to divert my remaining energies into some path Mr. Montgomery might deem more rewarding and/or non-delusional, and thus sparing my own students my inflicting upon them (with other sad, pathetic "educators") another year of "education" at the Center for Cartoon Studies, "fleecing...deluded hopefuls."

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