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#601154 - 10/03/12 06:15 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Ceci n'est pas une chaussette]
Peter Urkowitz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ceci n'est pas une chaussette
I also have no idea why Peter thinks that using "creator" to refer to the person who created a character is arbitrary semantics. Seems less like a caveat and more like a tautology to me.

Was John Buscema the creator of the Silver Surfer? No, obviously not. Jack Kirby was. This doesn't require you to accept terminology; just reality.


John Buscema was one of the creators of Silver Surfer (1968) #1-17, and a million other comics besides. That's one of the ways we use the term in comic book fandom, as I think you might have experienced, Ceci.

Jack Kirby was the creator of the character the Silver Surfer. That's another way we use the term, absolutely, no argument.

If you (or Lawson) want to restrict the term exclusively to people who create characters, that's fine for you, but I'm going to object if you want me to restrict my usage accordingly. I want to avoid any confusion, so that the next time I say "The creators of Corporate Work-for-Hire Bloodbath issue #183 did a lousy job," Lawson doesn't jump down my throat with the side issue of whether they are really creators or not.

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#601155 - 10/03/12 06:27 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Ceci n'est pas une chaussette]
Peter Urkowitz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ceci n'est pas une chaussette
This brings us back to Lawson's point. What's the problem with calling Buscema what he was: an artist?


No problem, except that I also remember long arguments on this site and elsewhere about whether people like Buscema are really "artists" or if they should be referred to by some lesser term. Once again, it's a battle over semantics that gets us nowhere.

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#601156 - 10/03/12 06:32 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Peter Urkowitz Offline
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Registered: 08/28/00
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Loc: Salem, MA, USA
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Originally Posted By: MBunge
3. Its plot was cribbed from an episode of THE OUTER LIMITS.

I asked Joe this and he didn't answer: Have you seen "The Architects of Fear?" To say that Watchmen was lifted from that is, at best, a severe stretch. Try reading Sun Tzu's The Art of War and you'll likely be closer to finding the inspiration for the false flag plot of Watchmen.


I never have seen "The Architects of Fear!" Is it worth watching? Does it have even a little to do with Watchmen? Since it does get a reference within the book itself, I've always wanted to see it, anyway.

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#601157 - 10/03/12 06:44 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Peter Urkowitz]
Ceci n'est pas une chaussette Offline
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Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 2840
Originally Posted By: Peter Urkowitz
No problem, except that I also remember long arguments on this site and elsewhere about whether people like Buscema are really "artists" or if they should be referred to by some lesser term.


But just to be clear, nobody you're talking to now is actually saying that.

Quote:
John Buscema was one of the creators of Silver Surfer (1968) #1-17, and a million other comics besides.


Quote:
Once again, it's a battle over semantics that gets us nowhere.


It's just kind of fun to put these next to each other.
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#601158 - 10/03/12 06:49 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Peter Urkowitz Offline
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Registered: 08/28/00
Posts: 3231
Loc: Salem, MA, USA
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery

Alt cover by James Jean wannabe Massimo Carnevale.


Now that's just silly. Whatever you think of his work, Carnevale has been a professional since the 1980s, while Jean only started circa 2001.

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#601159 - 10/03/12 06:56 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Ceci n'est pas une chaussette]
Peter Urkowitz Offline
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Registered: 08/28/00
Posts: 3231
Loc: Salem, MA, USA
Originally Posted By: Ceci n'est pas une chaussette

Quote:
John Buscema was one of the creators of Silver Surfer (1968) #1-17, and a million other comics besides.


Quote:
Once again, it's a battle over semantics that gets us nowhere.


It's just kind of fun to put these next to each other.


You've stumped me, Ceci. Is there some kind of contradiction between those statements?

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#601160 - 10/03/12 07:09 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Peter Urkowitz]
Ceci n'est pas une chaussette Offline
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Registered: 12/19/05
Posts: 2840
Originally Posted By: Peter Urkowitz
You've stumped me, Ceci. Is there some kind of contradiction between those statements?


No. Definitely not.
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#601161 - 10/03/12 08:22 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Peter Urkowitz]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Posts: 7091
Originally Posted By: Peter Urkowitz
Carnevale has been a professional since the 1980s, while Jean only started circa 2001.

Carnevale's first major comics work was the cover to Y: The Last Man #23, August 2002. Jean's best known work is the Fables covers, starting in July 2002, but contributed to Meathaus starting in 2000. As far as the comics industry is concerned, Jean and Carnevale were contemporaries, both very fortunate that the interior artists were too shitty to do the covers. Carnevale was okay, but I preferred Jean. Jean is more imaginative, Carnevale is more literal.

Carnevale's Ozy alt cover is pretty loose. At first glance, I thought it was Dan Brereton. Which would have made me very sad.
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#601163 - 10/03/12 08:37 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Peter Urkowitz]
Allen Montgomery Online   content
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7091
Originally Posted By: Peter Urkowitz
"The Architects of Fear!" Is it worth watching?

It's pretty bad.

The Watchmen connection is basically the first ten minutes, wherein a boardroom of businessmen hatch out the fake alien invasion and pick which one of them is going to be turned into the alien. Robert Culp.

Then there's forty minutes in your generic lab setting of Culp being transformed, learning to pilot the spaceship, melodrama with his fiancé busting into the lab and nearly discovering the plot (she was told he was dead). The last ten minutes is Culp (I guess) in a papier maché alien head running around trying (and failing) to evade soldiers in a swamp after he crashes his ship (the original plan was to land at the U.N., I think it was).

I bought the second season of TOL at WalMart for ten bucks. I'm a fan of Robert Culp from his roles on The Greatest American Hero and Everybody Loves Raymond, so I appreciated his performance. But the production value was very shoddy.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
— Bob Kane

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#601165 - 10/03/12 10:13 PM Re: So, how bad can BEFORE WATCHMEN get? [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Ted Kilvington Offline
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Registered: 05/10/99
Posts: 1080
Loc: Mason, MI, USA
The plot device of scientists faking an alien invasion to bring about world peace is an old science-fiction trope. Not only was Alan Moore not the first writer to use the notion, it wasn't even the first comic edited by Len Wein to use the device; Roy Thomas used the trope to re-introduce an old Golden Age Hawkman villain in All-Star Squadron #10-#12. Personally I thought the plotline in Watchmen was more similar to Vonnegut than the Architects of Fear.
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