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#601840 - 02/01/13 09:04 PM Whine and Complain to Get What You Want...
billybates Offline
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http://www.change.org/petitions/cartoon-...animated-series

Yes, it's not the most compelling petition (or even the best proofread), but please sign to let those fat cats at Cartoon Network know you're more frustrated than a bee flicked off a flower.

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#601841 - 02/02/13 05:43 AM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: billybates]
Allen Montgomery Offline
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Is there one to sign in favor of cancelling those shows?
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If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
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#601842 - 02/02/13 12:43 PM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: Allen Montgomery]
billybates Offline
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You can start one if you must, but know that Young Justice paid Jack Kirby more in royalties than all the non-Captain America Marvel movies combined (by which I mean anything.)

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#601843 - 02/02/13 10:00 PM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: billybates]
Allen Montgomery Offline
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For what?
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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#601844 - 02/03/13 03:00 AM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: Allen Montgomery]
billybates Offline
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They pack the show with royalty-attached characters (seemingly by design). They structured the show so a Kirby character appears in almost every episode. Kirby's estate even got character payments for henchmen as obscure as Bruno "Ugly" Mannheim and Glorious Godfrey has made a cameo in every episode this last season. Characters like The Forever People, the DNAliens, and Klarion were all featured in episodes.

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#601845 - 02/03/13 10:54 AM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: billybates]
Allen Montgomery Offline
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Interesting. I can't seem to find any news stories confirming this, though. Drop a link, please.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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#601848 - 02/03/13 03:16 PM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: Allen Montgomery]
billybates Offline
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Oh, this is all in my head (which is why I said seemingly by design.) It could be that they don't give a hot damn about comic book creators getting a payout, but I'm saying the result of the show are these character royalties. And you know they get the royalty when the "character created by..." credit appears at the end of the show.

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#601850 - 02/03/13 10:57 PM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: billybates]
Allen Montgomery Offline
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Originally Posted By: billybates
Kirby's estate even got character payments

This is the part I want to see a link confirming.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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#601851 - 02/04/13 04:59 AM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: Allen Montgomery]
billybates Offline
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A TV writer gets specific royalties for a character they created that recurs in a series...Certain creators made deals with DC so they get a "created by" credit when their character appears in a comic and they get a comic book-sized royalty. Every comic book creator should be getting the TV-proportioned character payment when their "created by" credit appears (in the same way they'd get a toy-proportioned royalty if their credited character were produced as a toy).

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#601856 - 02/04/13 01:52 PM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: billybates]
Allen Montgomery Offline
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Originally Posted By: billybates
Every comic book creator should be getting the TV-proportioned character payment when their "created by" credit appears

Ah. So you have no evidence whatsoever that the Kirby estate receives money from the show.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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#601857 - 02/04/13 01:58 PM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Lawson Offline
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Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Originally Posted By: billybates
Every comic book creator should be getting the TV-proportioned character payment when their "created by" credit appears

Ah. So you have no evidence whatsoever that the Kirby estate receives money from the show.


Now, Allen.

I'm sure the estates of Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster get payment for those Superboy appearances in most episodes.

Because if there's one thing we've learned, it's that entertainment conglomerates are quick to cut checks to creators based on when they should.

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#601858 - 02/04/13 03:56 PM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: Allen Montgomery]
billybates Offline
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Jack Kirby made a deal in the mid 80s to get royalties and a "created by" credit on his characters if he designed toys for the Super Powers toy line and finished The New Gods comic. I thought this was common knowledge. It's even on his IMDB page http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0456158/bio

If you want to audit Cartoon Network, go right ahead. But I know that Kirby's been paid a royalty for every other appearance, so why would this be different?

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#601859 - 02/04/13 04:01 PM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: billybates]
Lawson Offline
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Originally Posted By: billybates
Jack Kirby made a deal in the mid 80s to get royalties and a "created by" credit on his characters if he designed toys for the Super Powers toy line and finished The New Gods comic. I thought this was common knowledge. It's even on his IMDB page http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0456158/bio

If you want to audit Cartoon Network, go right ahead. But I know that Kirby's been paid a royalty for every other appearance, so why would this be different?


The Fourth World toy deal was engineered by DC's president and publisher at the time, Jenette Kahn, who had a conscience and believed that Jack Kirby hadn't gotten a fair shake from his long, productive career in comics.

"Jack was one of those venerated, amazing talents and we just wanted to find a way that we could recognize -- financially -- his enormous contributions, and we used the Kenner (toy) deal to do that," Kahn later said in an interview.

Around the same time, Kahn threw Kirby a few more comics assignments, including a couple of SUPER POWERS mini-series and a graphic novel to conclude his Fourth World storylines from the 1970s.

All credit to Kahn. These were kind and generous acts, and very much the exception to the rule.

However, Kahn has been gone for years. I've no idea why you think it logically follows that Kirby's heirs get anything from this latest animated cartoon. Do we know if they got anything from the Captain America movie that grossed $650 million? From the Avengers movie that grossed $1.5 billion?

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#601860 - 02/05/13 12:29 AM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: Lawson]
billybates Offline
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Joe Simon made a deal for credit for himself and Kirby...I don't know if that means Captain America movie money or not, so I left it off the list of Marvel projects from which Kirby definitely makes no money.

The deals for creator credit don't end with the regime that broker them. Alan Moore still gets (and turns down) royalties for projects developed under Kahn, Neil Gaimman still gets a payment for Sandman statues, the eighty people credited with creating John Constantine got checks from that awful Keanu Reeves movie.

And if the deal ended when Kirby died, why do they still bother giving him the "created by" credit? To tease his heirs? They don't give Bob Kane, or George Perez, or James Robinson that credit to pay homage when they use their characters...they do it because that's the deal they made.

(Plus, that 80s deal with Kirby was as much about embarrassing Marvel as it was about feel-good corporate outreach. At the time, Marvel was withholding Kirby's artwork till he signed a release stating he had no rights in the ownership of the Marvel characters. We know how that ended.)

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#601861 - 02/05/13 09:55 AM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: billybates]
Lawson Offline
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Billy, I don't see evidence that Kirby's estate gets money from the "Young Justice" animated cartoon.

Generally, the Golden Age and Silver Age guys like Kirby got hosed on this sort of thing unless someone felt bad and threw them a bone, as Jenette Kahn did with the 1980s toy line. You typically didn't see any creative rights, such as credit or royalties, until the mid-1970s at the earliest.

That's why Marv Wolfman and George Perez get some money when their Teen Titans characters, like Cyborg, Raven, Starfire and Deathstroke, turn up on television. Wolfman and Perez had the good fortune to be working in the early 1980s.

But Kirby's Marvel creations from the 1940s and 1960s pull down hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars on the big screen ... and that money stays with Disney/Marvel.

I'm unaware of DC's 1980s toy deal with Kirby extending to giving his estate royalties on Fourth World-related characters used in other media 30 years later. I'd love to be wrong.

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#601862 - 02/05/13 12:36 PM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: billybates]
Allen Montgomery Offline
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Originally Posted By: billybates
And if the deal ended when Kirby died, why do they still bother giving him the "created by" credit?

For the same reason H.P. Lovecraft and William Shakespeare keep getting screen credits: because the people behind the movie/TV show/video game think they're somehow honoring the memory of those people by putting their names on the screen, when it actually carries about as much honor as those "Support the Troops" bumper magnets.

Here's an example. Dan DeCarlo did get a mention in the closing credits of the Josie & the Pussycats movie. You know what he got when he asked about getting paid for having created that property? Fired. He even had to pay for the tickets to take his and Josie's granddaughter to see it.

A screen credit doesn't automatically confer monetary compensation.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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#601863 - 02/05/13 01:03 PM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Lawson Offline
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Of course, Jack and Roz Kirby are long since dead. Their children and grandchildren are still with us. That's the Kirby estate.

In some quarters, there are debates about what a creator's estate is entitled to after he dies. Kirby, Jerry Siegel, those sorts of guys. Why can't the entertainment conglomerates breathe easy once the creators (and perhaps their wives) are in the ground? Screw the subsequent generations, they didn't create Captain America or Superman, the old man did!

Morally, anyway, I don't find that a compelling argument. Superman, Captain America, etc., etc., have made corporations almost uncountable fortunes -- millions of dollars upon billions of dollars -- with very little of that money trickling down to the creators, the men whose imaginations made it all possible.

In a just world, Siegel, Kirby and the others would have enjoyed comfortable lives as millionaires, retired at leisure and passed on to their heirs a reasonable sum as their legacies ... just as the executives atop these entertainment conglomerates do. They did not, to put it lightly.

The Kirby children and grandchildren are due something from Captain America, the Fantastic Four, the Avengers, and so on, in my opinion, just as they would be due something if Kirby had owned a particularly valuable company or mansion when he died.

Instead, other people's children are getting the fortune.

Again, I'm speaking from a moral perspective.

Legally, I realize, yes, yes, people signed contracts, it's all legal 'n shit, fuck them and their progeny for all eternity, haw haw, make mine Marvel.

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#601864 - 02/05/13 02:29 PM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: Lawson]
billybates Offline
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Kirby's deal retroactively covered his 70s work...It was not just a hand-out for designing Super Powers toys.

Here is an excerpt from a Chuck Dixon interview (available here: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=39918 ) -- It talks about how these deals are legal, not moral.

"Of course, in an era where creator's rights particularly in regards to media adaptations is a hot topic in the comics community, Dixon and his collaborators enjoy what he classifies as solid, fair contracts for their contributions. "Graham and I both signed participation agreements, which are good in perpetuity. So it's not up to them whether they take care of us. We're taken care of. We've seen money from Bane all along the Lego games and the little Bane-shaped piece in the Spaghettios. We always get a piece of what Bane makes. We'll see money from this movie. They have graphs and charts to figure out how much based on how many lines of dialogue he has and how much he's in the movie and how much impact he has on the story. We were part of it the last time when Bane was in the last [Joel] Schumacher film really briefly. We participated in that.""

"In perpetuity" works both ways...Heirs can't sue for rights, DC keeps the payments flowing. If this was terminated when Kirby died, or even ten years later, where was the outrage?

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#601865 - 02/05/13 03:03 PM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: billybates]
Lawson Offline
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Originally Posted By: billybates
Kirby's deal retroactively covered his 70s work...It was not just a hand-out for designing Super Powers toys.


Are you sure? I'd like to think you're correct, but what evidence do you have?

My understanding -- and I certainly could be wrong -- is that Jenette Kahn allowed Jack Kirby to make a few minor modifications to the design of his Fourth World characters in 1982. Kahn used that to retroactively grant Kirby a share of ownership in those characters for the purposes of the Super Powers toy line and animated cartoon then airing on television.

I've never heard of Kirby's estate getting money beyond that Super Powers deal -- for example, for the use of Darkseid and related characters on the "Smallville" television show a few years back.

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#601866 - 02/05/13 03:27 PM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: billybates]
Allen Montgomery Offline
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Originally Posted By: billybates
Dixon and his collaborators enjoy what he classifies as solid, fair contracts for their contributions.

Last I checked, Chuck Dixon is not Jack Kirby.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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#601870 - 02/05/13 09:35 PM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: Allen Montgomery]
billybates Offline
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Hey, you contrarian dips...You did your job! You got me to sift through my Jack Kirby Collectors to find what I've known to be fact the whole time (but that you couldn't find on google, which means I must be wrong).

From The Jack Kirby Collector 39, pg 57:

Paul Levitz (on the 2002 Kirby Tribute Panel): "And in the course of talking to him about it (The Super Powers toy line), we realized that we could get just enough new creative work out of that that we could stare ourselves in the mirror and justify to the corporation that that was an acceptable excuse to kind of rewrite history and turn the clock back and say, "Well, Jack, in trade for doing this stuff, which we'll pay you to do, we'll also give you the kind of royalty from these characters that have not yet been exploited, as if you were creating them today." And part of it was certainly that it was a good message to our competition...And it continues to earn the estate money. If you see the Demon show up on a Saturday morning cartoon, that picks up a few grand somewhere in the system, I guess - A hundred - it depends on how many characters appear in it, and adds into the royalty system. That feels good when you see that check go out."

It sure does feel good, Paul. It sure does.

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#601871 - 02/05/13 09:46 PM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: billybates]
billybates Offline
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Actually...I'll just add some keywords here so other Google-obsessed information sleuths won't suffer from the same problems you two had:

Jack Kirby DC Comics Royalties

Jack Kirby DC creative participation contract

Jack Kirby DC Comics 1980s deal

Jack Kirby Super Powers royalty

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#601872 - 02/06/13 09:29 AM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: billybates]
Lawson Offline
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Originally Posted By: billybates
Oh, this is all in my head (which is why I said seemingly by design.)


Originally Posted By: Lawson
Are you sure? I'd like to think you're correct, but what evidence do you have?

... I certainly could be wrong.


Originally Posted By: billybates
Hey, you contrarian dips...You did your job! You got me to sift through my Jack Kirby Collectors to find what I've known to be fact the whole time (but that you couldn't find on google, which means I must be wrong).


Har! laugh

I like the contrarian dips crack, and plead guilty to that, but gimme a break, Billy. You said this was all in your head. I asked for evidence. This appears to be evidence, as long as Levitz spoke correctly a decade ago. Good to hear! I did not know Time Warner continues to send Kirby's heirs money for the use of Fourth World characters.

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#601873 - 02/06/13 12:53 PM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: Lawson]
billybates Offline
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You're taking "all in my head" out of context...I was talking about my speculation that the producers of Young Justice pepper the show with Kirby characters in order to slide his heirs cash.

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#601874 - 02/06/13 01:09 PM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: billybates]
Lawson Offline
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Originally Posted By: billybates
You're taking "all in my head" out of context.


Let's check the context.

Originally Posted By: billybates
Young Justice paid Jack Kirby more in royalties than all the non-Captain America Marvel movies combined (by which I mean anything.)


Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
For what?


Originally Posted By: billybates
They pack the show with royalty-attached characters (seemingly by design). They structured the show so a Kirby character appears in almost every episode. Kirby's estate even got character payments for henchmen as obscure as Bruno "Ugly" Mannheim and Glorious Godfrey has made a cameo in every episode this last season. Characters like The Forever People, the DNAliens, and Klarion were all featured in episodes.


Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Interesting. I can't seem to find any news stories confirming this, though. Drop a link, please.


Originally Posted By: billybates
Oh, this is all in my head (which is why I said seemingly by design.) It could be that they don't give a hot damn about comic book creators getting a payout, but I'm saying the result of the show are these character royalties. And you know they get the royalty when the "character created by..." credit appears at the end of the show.


Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
Originally Posted By: billybates
Kirby's estate even got character payments

This is the part I want to see a link confirming.



And a day or two later, you were nice enough to thumb through your back issues of a Kirby fanzine and find the Paul Levitz comments from 2002. So thank you for that.

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#601875 - 02/06/13 01:19 PM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: Lawson]
Mr. Socko Offline
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Comicon.com: proudly serving contrarian dips since 1998.

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#601876 - 02/06/13 01:48 PM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: billybates]
Allen Montgomery Offline
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Originally Posted By: billybates
You got me to sift through my Jack Kirby Collectors

Something you should have done three or four days earlier.


Originally Posted By: billybates

Paul Levitz (on the 2002 Kirby Tribute Panel): "it continues to earn the estate money."

Kirby's wife died in 1998, so we assume "the estate" to be his children and grandchildren. There's almost no way of knowing what the terms of the agreement are now, and if those terms are being honored for whoever benefits. Also, one citation from Paul Levitz (at the beginning of his seven-year term as president of DC Comics, I might add) at a media event trying to generate positive press for the company he has dedicated himself to for over 35 years (he was only in his mid-20's when this deal he's talking about went down) is not an airtight statement of fact.

Sorry, but I can't just accept the word of a man who was instrumental in the repeated fucking of Alan Moore.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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#601877 - 02/06/13 01:48 PM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: Mr. Socko]
billybates Offline
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See, I figured Allan is saying show me the proof that the producers force Kirby characters in the show...I would have no idea that he was talking about the basic reality of royalties.

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#601878 - 02/06/13 01:54 PM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: billybates]
Allen Montgomery Offline
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Originally Posted By: billybates
I figured Allan is saying show me the proof that the producers force Kirby characters in the show



I have no doubt that there are some Kirby fanboys in the animation world. Or maybe just some desperate, idea-barren wankers like whoever used Pat Broderick's character "Plastique" on Smallville (hey, where's Paul Levitz on that?). If there's one thing Jack Kirby was excellent at, it was generating empty vessel characters.


Originally Posted By: billybates
I would have no idea that he was talking about the basic reality of royalties.

...even though I specifically requested information confirming just that. But you did try, so thanks for your efforts.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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#601879 - 02/06/13 03:26 PM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Lawson Offline
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Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
If there's one thing Jack Kirby was excellent at, it was generating empty vessel characters.


Eh. I dunno that I agree with that.

I'm a Kirby fan. Kirby created strong, dynamic characters -- often weird characters -- many of them unique to his own eccentric sensibilities.

Other guys had very different ideas about what to do with, say, the Silver Surfer. Their vision didn't match Kirby's. And his DC creations, like the Fourth World and Kamandi, probably should have expired upon his departure from the company, at least in comic book format. They keep getting recycled, but nobody else has known quite what to do with them, very much including Grant Morrison.

The reason DC keeps reusing Darkseid & Co. in its stories -- in print and on television -- is because it doesn't really have any other cosmic-level villains. The Joker? Lex Luthor? Sinestro? Black Manta? It's hard to turn any of them into the centerpiece of a cosmic conspiracy of evil the way you can with Darkseid and his minions.

Paul Levitz was the first to realize this when he made Darkseid the surprise villain at the heart of the LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES' "Great Darkness Saga." Since then, Darkseid has fought everyone from Batman to the Teen Titans.

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#601880 - 02/06/13 04:01 PM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: Lawson]
Allen Montgomery Offline
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I'm not a Kirby fan. All the characters he created that anyone can remember actually having a personality of any kind, he developed with someone else. Kirby tossed out the character designs and maybe some basic situations/motivations, then Stan made them relatable.

When role-playing games came along in the 1970's, there were many thousands of kids who were engaged in the same level of "creating" that Kirby did, which is why I pay attention to Kirby's relative drawing abilities more than his rearranging costume elements and coming up with dopey names.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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#601881 - 02/06/13 04:12 PM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Lawson Offline
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Well, I'm about halfway through Kirby's Fourth World comics, as reprinted in paperback by DC in four thick volumes. (If Billy is correct, Kirby's kids and grandkids got a chunk of my money. I hope so, anyway.)

They're loopy as hell -- Kirby was a nut -- but I enjoy them.

Admittedly, Mark Evanier wrote some of them, which I did not know until very recently. MR. MIRACLE in particular, I believe. I read somewhere that Kirby turned over the writing chores to young Mark, his assistant, other than the dialogue for Funky Flashman, which was Kirby's "Fuck you" to Stan Lee, shortly before he returned to Marvel.

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#601882 - 02/06/13 09:17 PM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: Lawson]
billybates Offline
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It's amazing how neither of you can follow a simple line of logic, and you both misunderstand it identically. It seems impossible to find two rubes like you in the same place.

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#601883 - 02/06/13 11:29 PM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: billybates]
Allen Montgomery Offline
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There's no "line of logic." There's just you making a claim that you can only back up with one claim from a DC company shill.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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#601887 - 02/07/13 10:02 AM Re: Whine and Complain to Get What You Want... [Re: billybates]
Lawson Offline
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Originally Posted By: billybates
It seems impossible to find two rubes like you in the same place.


Originally Posted By: Mr. Socko
Comicon.com: proudly serving contrarian dips since 1998.

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