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#602134 - 05/15/13 07:52 PM Infinite Crises Unearthed
Allen Montgomery Offline
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7087
Benghazi Never mind all the embassy attacks on BushJr's watch. The Republicans couldn't smear the president with this nonsense, so now they at least want to try and smear Hillary Clinton in a preemptive strike. They're going to keep pushing this "scandal," and the truth of the matter (House Republicans cut $200Million from embassy security since 2011) may even eventually get picked up by the inept mainstream media.


IRS Targets Tea Party Good idea, bad execution. Anti-government political astroturf groups should certainly be harassed if they try to apply for tax-exempt status (and then they should be denied), but that decision needs to be made a little higher up in the chain of command. The president rightly predicted that the Supreme Court's verdict in the Citizens United case would lead to a flood of anonymous dark money being channeled through secret non-profit organizations. If we lived in a just world, the law would be changed back to only grant tax exemption for organizations that *exclusively* promote social welfare issues.


Tapping Reporters Phones The AP should sue, and they should win. *However* Bottom line here, we're talking about available technology. Legal or not, if someone chooses to use technology, they can use whatever's out there. You can't stuff the genie back into the bottle. If your only defense from technology is the law, then you have no defense.
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If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
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#602195 - 06/20/13 02:32 AM Re: Infinite Crises Unearthed [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Gerald Offline
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Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1108
NSA Surveillance Scandal
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#602197 - 06/20/13 09:53 AM Re: Infinite Crises Unearthed [Re: Gerald]
Allen Montgomery Offline
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7087
...which is also a bunch of crap. Besides the fact that all the provisions which make the NSA surveillance legal are thanks to BushJr's Patriot Act, we are once again talking about technology.

Ed Snowden lied about how much money he made and was likely also lying about how much power he actually wielded. Nonetheless, when you put all of your life online, don't act surprised when some other entity whether it's Google, Facebook or even the federal government gains access to knowledge about it.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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#602203 - 06/21/13 07:19 PM Re: Infinite Crises Unearthed [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Gerald Offline
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Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1108
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
If your only defense from technology is the law, then you have no defense.


Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery
...which is also a bunch of crap. Besides the fact that all the provisions which make the NSA surveillance legal are thanks to BushJr's Patriot Act, we are once again talking about technology.


So we should only be concerned with impossible-to-commit crimes, as well as impossible-to-perpetrate violations of our rights. The only legitimate defense in your eyes is to make sure that what we don't want done to us, cannot actually be done. Interesting.

[quote=Allen Montgomery]
Ed Snowden lied about how much money he made and was likely also lying about how much power he actually wielded.

Pretty much what I've been hearing on many of the cable news channels. Attack the whistle blower's credibility, not the administration which admitted to violating the 4th amendment.



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"My head's lopsided *****!"-Red Gumby

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#602204 - 06/21/13 09:50 PM Re: Infinite Crises Unearthed [Re: Gerald]
Allen Montgomery Offline
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Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7087
Originally Posted By: Gerald
The only legitimate defense in your eyes is to make sure that what we don't want done to us, cannot actually be done. Interesting.

Netizens voluntarily submit to "Big Brother" every day. What is the difference between a corporation having that information and the government having it? The government can at least operate under the premise of protecting people, whereas corporations' fundamental purpose is to target and take advantage of people. Someone is watching you either way, but one can at least claim to be watching *over* you.


Originally Posted By: Gerald
Attack the whistle blower's credibility,

So you're saying that anyone who violates the terms of their employment just because they feel like doing so should be applauded?

Snowden specifically sought out media outrage specialists (Laura Poitras and Glenn Greenwald) to disseminate his message rather than even attempting to address his alleged concerns with any elected officials. Had he taken the more sensible (and less illegal) approach of seeking the counsel of senators and former senators who opposed the Patriot Act (Tom Harkin, Patrick Leahy, Carl Levin, Patty Murray, Ron Wyden, Russ Feingold, Jim Jeffords, Jeff Bingaman, and the former senator from the state where Snowden lived Hawaii Daniel Akaka) and already had access to the information that he leaked, he might not be looking at the possibility of thirty years behind bars.

While I appreciate the opportunity that the Snowden situation has given us to pursue more conversation on the topic, the kid has demonstrated that he is not at all smart and is basically full of shit.


Originally Posted By: Gerald
not the administration which admitted to violating the 4th amendment.

Apparently I missed that briefing.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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#602216 - 06/28/13 07:21 PM Re: Infinite Crises Unearthed [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Gerald Offline
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Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1108
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery

Netizens voluntarily submit to "Big Brother" every day. What is the difference between a corporation having that information and the government having it? The government can at least operate under the premise of protecting people, whereas corporations' fundamental purpose is to target and take advantage of people. Someone is watching you either way, but one can at least claim to be watching *over* you.

Then why bother having privacy laws if we "voluntarily" submit to an invasion of privacy for example, by using AT&T to make phone calls?
The difference is what the government can and will do with the information, and what companies like Verizon and AT&T can and will do with the information.
The FBI was monitoring Martin Luther King Jr but on top of that they were threatening him and giving people information on his extramarital affairs. That was in the 60s so it's not like abuse of this information hasn't happened before. Except now EVERYONE is being tracked.


Originally Posted By: Gerald
Attack the whistle blower's credibility,

Quote:

Snowden specifically sought out media outrage specialists (Laura Poitras and Glenn Greenwald) to disseminate his message rather than even attempting to address his alleged concerns with any elected officials. Had he taken the more sensible (and less illegal) approach of seeking the counsel of senators and former senators who opposed the Patriot Act (Tom Harkin, Patrick Leahy, Carl Levin, Patty Murray, Ron Wyden, Russ Feingold, Jim Jeffords, Jeff Bingaman, and the former senator from the state where Snowden lived Hawaii Daniel Akaka) and already had access to the information that he leaked, he might not be looking at the possibility of thirty years behind bars.

Which doesn't address what he's exposing. Although I can definitely see why he wouldn't trust congress to do much. Congress granted the telecom companies immunity after they were shown to be illegally wire tapping the calls of American citizens.

Quote:

While I appreciate the opportunity that the Snowden situation has given us to pursue more conversation on the topic,
which we wouldn't be having now had he not exposed it.

Originally Posted By: Gerald
apparently I missed that briefing.

It was the one where they admitted they were keeping track of ALL the calls that EVERY American makes and the duration of those calls.
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"My head's lopsided *****!"-Red Gumby

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#602217 - 06/28/13 09:21 PM Re: Infinite Crises Unearthed [Re: Gerald]
Allen Montgomery Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7087
Originally Posted By: Gerald
Then why bother having privacy laws if we "voluntarily" submit to an invasion of privacy for example, by using AT&T to make phone calls?

That's not what I'm talking about.


Originally Posted By: Gerald
Which doesn't address what he's exposing.

Then please explain what he's exposing. Other than his yellow belly, I mean.


Originally Posted By: Gerald
Although I can definitely see why he wouldn't trust congress to do much.

Russ Feingold and Daniel Akaka are no longer in the Senate.


Originally Posted By: Gerald
Congress granted the telecom companies immunity after they were shown to be illegally wire tapping the calls of American citizens.

BushJr.


Quote:
While I appreciate the opportunity that the Snowden situation has given us to pursue more conversation on the topic,

Originally Posted By: Gerald
which we wouldn't be having now had he not exposed it.

BS. Some of us were having this discussion in 2001, with the passage of the Patriot Act. So far Snowden hasn't released anything that wasn't revealed in 2006.


Originally Posted By: Gerald
It was the one where they admitted they were keeping track of ALL the calls that EVERY American makes and the duration of those calls.

Please explain how this is unreasonable search and seizure. If it is not unreasonable, it does not violate the fourth amendment.


Originally Posted By: Gerald
Attack the whistle blower's credibility,

A whistle blower reports a crime. A leaker commits one. Edward Snowden is a leaker.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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#602218 - 06/29/13 01:36 AM Re: Infinite Crises Unearthed [Re: Allen Montgomery]
Gerald Offline
Member

Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 1108
Originally Posted By: Allen Montgomery


Then please explain what he's exposing. Other than his yellow belly, I mean.

You're being purposely obtuse if you asking it to be explained.




Quote:

BushJr.

You said that Snowden should have gone another route like appealing to members of congress. I brought up that the majority of congress wasn't interested in holding the companies accountable for illegally wire tapping the calls of American citizens.


Quote:

BS. Some of us were having this discussion in 2001, with the passage of the Patriot Act. So far Snowden hasn't released anything that wasn't revealed in 2006.

Yes some of us were. I remember arguing with conservatives and having to deal with simple minded responses like "Why do you hate America?" When arguing against losing certain freedoms people coming back with, "If you have nothing to hide you shouldn't have anything to worry about."
During this time I didn't support George W. Bush's administration and voted against those who gave went along with Bush's Iraq War Resolution.
I also remember posting about the telecom companies getting immunity in this same forum.

Make up your mind. Is this different from what was going on during the Bush administration or is the same? If it's different obviously Snowden had exposed further violations of our rights. If it's the same why do you seem to be in support of the current practices?


Quote:

Please explain how this is unreasonable search and seizure. If it is not unreasonable, it does not violate the fourth amendment.

Search and seizure happens when there is probable cause. What probable cause is there for the government the calls made by EVERY single American citizen, as well as monitoring ALL their web activity, and keeping this information stored?


Originally Posted By: Gerald

A whistle blower reports a crime. A leaker commits one. Edward Snowden is a leaker.

Actually it's someone who exposes wrong doing within an organization. What crimes did Coleen Rowley uncover within the FBI?
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#602219 - 06/29/13 01:57 PM Re: Infinite Crises Unearthed [Re: Gerald]
Allen Montgomery Offline
Member

Registered: 05/08/00
Posts: 7087
Originally Posted By: Gerald
You're being purposely obtuse if you asking it to be explained.

Not really. Make a list of all the things Snowden has revealed.


Originally Posted By: Gerald
You said that Snowden should have gone another route like appealing to members of congress. I brought up that the majority of congress wasn't interested in holding the companies accountable for illegally wire tapping the calls of American citizens.

Once again. Russ Feingold (the only senator who voted against the Patriot Act in 2001) and Daniel Akaka (who voted against the re-authorization of the Patriot Act in 2006) are no longer in the Senate. Had I been in Snowden's position, my first thoughts would be to reach out to someone like that.


Originally Posted By: Gerald
Make up your mind. Is this different from what was going on during the Bush administration or is the same?

It's the same set of set of provisions the Patriot Act but handled differently than the previous administration. BushJr didn't ask for warrants, Obama did.


Originally Posted By: Gerald
Search and seizure happens when there is probable cause. What probable cause is there for the government the calls made by EVERY single American citizen, as well as monitoring ALL their web activity, and keeping this information stored?

The legal difference has been described in an analogy, as in the difference between building a library and pulling a book off a shelf in that library. Compiling communcations meta-data is not the same thing as actually tapping into its contents. We can have a discussion about whether or not the government should do that, but making the erroneous assumption that the government is willfully and admittedly violating the fourth amendment is going one rhetorical step too far.


Originally Posted By: Gerald
What crimes did Coleen Rowley uncover within the FBI?

Had to look that one up. Okay, that's the lady who revealed the gross negligence in the FBI's not connecting Moussaoui's aberrant application to the Minnesota flight school ("I don't want to learn how to take off or land, only how to steer the plane in the air.") with previous al-Qaeda threats about hijacking planes, and perhaps preventing the 9/11 attacks. Gross negligence is a crime, if you weren't aware, as is taking a job with the specific intent of gathering classified data you wish to give to the press.
_________________________
"The trouble with being a ghost writer or artist is that you must remain anonymous without credit.
If one wants the credit, one has to cease being a ghost and become a leader or innovator."
Bob Kane

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