Thanks so much for submitting your art sample to Marvel Comics. As I am sure you are aware, we receive numerous submissions every day, so we are unable to provide you with a detailed critique of your work except to say that we feel you are not quite ready to be an artist for Marvel. But don’t be discouraged; there isn’t a working professional in comic book land who hasn’t at one time or another gotten a letter like this. Just keep your nose to the grindstone and submit to us again once you feel you’ve honed your skills and are ready for us to see the results. We’ll be more than happy to take a look!
Please make sure you also submit the Marvel Idea Submission Form with any future submissions, because without that, we cannot review your materials. Also, due to the volume of submissions, we can’t keep or return your material, but we dispose of it so please remember to keep a copy for yourself.
I want to personally thank you for your interest in Marvel Comics and wish you the best of luck in your artistic endeavors. Keep your eye on the prize and I’ll see ya in the funny books!
Joe Quesada
Editor in Chief
Marvel Comics
=============================================
The fact i got rejected wasnt a surprise (but a guy can hope, right?) the fact they replied 9 days after i sent my art for review was. I was expecting a reply a couple months down the line, if any at all.
-------------------- I'm tired of all this nonsense about beauty being only skin-deep. That's deep enough. What do you want, an adorable pancreas? Jean Kerr _ _ _ _ ______________________________________ _ _ _ _
posted
You might not want to follow NEFARIOUS or Alexander's advice, BATFAN. The comments from the comicon mob may be far less kind than Joe Quesada's formletter. Posts: 1560 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Are you kidding, a letter like that deserves a nice frame and prominent placement in your studio.
I had a great flush letter from Disney from like 1989, that I still kick myself for not keeping.
Posts: 4988 | From: Cleveland Heights, Ohio | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I remember sending out "samples" as a way of getting autographs (on rejection letters) from all these cool "comics people"...who are now (all of them) out of the industry...(still, that Malibu stationary is wicked cool...)
Posts: 1293 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Bring Back Zot: You might not want to follow NEFARIOUS or Alexander's advice, BATFAN. The comments from the comicon mob may be far less kind than Joe Quesada's formletter.
Yeah, kids can be cruel. Drawing is a bitch, so the fact that you've done enough work to submit to publishers says alot, atleast to me.
posted
I had two very detailed rejection letters from the art directors at DRAGON Magazine when I thought I could draw. Boy was I wrong, let me tell you. And to be told in detail how much you suck, man that just sucks. I still hurt... well not really I suck.
quote:Originally posted by NEFARIOUS: Yeah, kids can be cruel. Drawing is a bitch, so the fact that you've done enough work for a to submit to publishers says a lot, at least to me.
Me too. Batfan already did more than most people ever do.
Anyone who pitches him shit, probably wouldn't have the guts to ask for a raise at a Wal-Mart let alone putting in the time and effort and guts to submit an illustration portfolio, to a big publisher.
Posts: 4988 | From: Cleveland Heights, Ohio | Registered: Jun 2001
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they're the Ms Marvel pages found on the front page.
I actually wish the letter was more critical as opposed to just getting a form letter.
In case Erik Larsen stumbles upon this thread, could you give me a detailed critique?
-------------------- I'm tired of all this nonsense about beauty being only skin-deep. That's deep enough. What do you want, an adorable pancreas? Jean Kerr _ _ _ _ ______________________________________ _ _ _ _
posted
Really cool stuff. The first page is by far your weakest in my opinion. Start off with a stronger page and you might have a chance. There were also some small detals like the S on Ms. Marvel continued in a straight line under her boobs. I think it would look a little different. I was not expecting such cool art. Good job.
-------------------- The Man of Mettle Posts: 3882 | From: The MBA (Mysterious Blue Area) of the MMM (Mighty Marvel Moon), Nagga (Pal) | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Wow, just as good as any stuff being published today. Screw Marvel! Publish your own stuff.
Posts: 4988 | From: Cleveland Heights, Ohio | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
The Ms Marvel and Wonder Woman drawings were sick. I'm actually surprised you got a rejection letter. The submissions were cool.
My opinion, maybe, a little more detail like in the SHIELD base/helicopter thing. But the figures looked awesome. Perfect looking anatomy and nice looking faces. I think, good composition of panels. I'll definitely pick up a book drawn by you. In fact I would start buying Ms Marvel if you drew it.
-------------------- The Man of Mettle Posts: 3882 | From: The MBA (Mysterious Blue Area) of the MMM (Mighty Marvel Moon), Nagga (Pal) | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Good effort, Erick. I'm glad to see you're eager for feedback, too. That attitude will help you improve quickly.
For what it's worth, here are some pointers and crits that come to mind:
PAGE 1
Don't include a splash page in your samples. This is your opportunity to show editors that you can tell a story; a splash page only shows that you can draw a picture. Use few pages, but let every page showcase your skills at panel-to-panel continuity.
The jets and Ms. Marvel all appear to be flying at slightly different angles. This is possible in real life, but in a drawing it tends to make the flying objects look like they occupy different scenes, as though the images were pasted together. To line these objects up along parallel flightpaths, you'd find a vanishing point (in this case, to the faaar lower left), and draw a line from that point through the center of each jet, and through MM's center (along her spine), constructing each object or character around those center guidelines.
Those creases you drew in the middle of the clouds (such as near MM's hand at the left page of the page) don't look like proper cloud textures. They look like fluttering bits of torn cloth; it's confusing.
MM's feet, legs, hips, bosom, and shoulders are convincingly drawn, but her hands are too small and her fingers are unconvincing. Also, since her head is angled upward away from the viewer, her chin should be shorter, not taller.
Don't grey colors in with your pencil, as you've done on MM's costume. That's impossible to translate into ink, and editors want see that you can anticipate the inker's needs. If you intend her costume to be black, indicate where the inker can leave highlights on her form, to distinguish the black parts from each other.
PAGE 2
panel 1
Again, it would be helpful to ensure that the flying objects are flying in the exact same direction, at least when their direction of flight is already so similar.
Your vanishing point is too high in this panel; it should rest on the horizon, with the lines of the landscape (and the jets) converging on it.
Try not to let objects at different distances come very near each other without overlapping. Doing so makes readers feel as though the objects occupy the same plane, instead of being far apart. Here, MM's head is *just* below the horizon line. If her head clearly overlapped the horizon, it would feel more like she is near and the horizon is far.
Nice work on MM's near leg and foot, but her ribcage appears to be hanging too low, and her far foot appears too short in comparison to the length of her shin. Her hands are again too small and unconvincing.
Drawing all of those little buildings is time-consuming, and all that detail distracts readers from the panel's key figures. From this distance, it would be sufficient to hint at the cityscape with a few silhouetted buildings and patches of detail. Editors need to know that you can keep readers focused on the important stuff, and that you know how and where to save time (ensuring that you'll meet your deadlines).
It's generally best to direct the action from left to right, since that's the order in which we read. So here, you should have MM and the jets flying slightly toward the right, instead of slightly toward the left. Likewise, in the second and third panels, it would be best to have the jets facing to the right. (This would also help those panels match better with panel 5, since staying on the same side of an object or character throughout a scene aids clarity.)
panel 2
The far jet is too hard to see in this panel. It would be better to shift our point of view, or the jets' positioning, so that the near jet won't block the far one. In samples especially, the reader must be given a clear idea of where everyone is in each panel.
panels 3-5
The freehand-drawn curves on this page appear amateurish. Invest in some ellipse templates, for drawing the smooth curves of jets and other vehicles. It will greatly improve the look of your machines.
The hatched shading lines in the last two panels (on the pilot's jacket and seat) are flimsy and noncommital. If you shade with lines, be bold and clear and make sure they are uniform and parallel.
MM's hair is too angular and ragged; it looks like her belt. Practice drawing hair that's smoother, more fluid.
PAGE 3
panel 1
Her hair here is a slight improvement, but could be smoother.
Breaking panel borders as MM does here is generally discouraged. It's especially confusing here because it looks as though MM is flying into that control room. (We know in our heads that she isn't doing that, but comics need to work on a gut level, and the overlapping here tells our gut that she's flying into the room even when our head denies it.)
panel 3
Nice angle and foreshortening on Nick Fury. However, he appears in the scene out of nowhere; it's impossible to tell where he is. Is he somewhere in that control room, or on the ship's exterior...? To avoid confusion, feature each key character clearly in the establishing shot before moving in for a close-up. It's also helpful to "tag" the close-up with some corresponding element from the establishing shot (such as a nearby railing or window), to help the reader connect the close-up with the previous shot.
panel 4
Again, we don't know where MM is in relation to the air ship. Also, her near fist leads our eye back into the second panel, by overlapping the border.
panel 5
The ship looks good. It would be helpful to add some small details here and there, like figures on the exterior deck, or tiny panelling or radio antennae, to give a sense of scale and help readers 'feel' how large the ship is.
-------------------- ........................ jessehamm.com Posts: 557 | From: Lodi, CA, USA | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
Nice critique, Jesse. It reminds me of the detailed critiques Paul Smith used to give when he was a regular here. I suspect he's busy drawing the Spirit now.
For those who don't know, Jesse Hamm is a published provfessional comics artist, of the excellent DC/Minx GN "Good As Lily". I'd strongly encourage you to support Jesse and give it a try.
Posts: 1560 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Batfan, I thought your art looked good, very promising indeed. And Jesse's advice sounds instructive. With some more work, I easily can see you drawing for any comics publisher. I think you've got the stuff.
Posts: 5940 | From: Lexington, Ky. | Registered: Nov 2002
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posted
Is "Marvel Fan" some sort of handle or do they actually address people seeking professional work as "fan?"
Posts: 213 | Registered: Nov 2005
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they're the Ms Marvel pages found on the front page.
I actually wish the letter was more critical as opposed to just getting a form letter.
In case Erik Larsen stumbles upon this thread, could you give me a detailed critique?
Jesse Hamm is talking sense. Listen to him--but in addition to that:
The biggest problem I can see is that you have no line style or much of an idea of how pencils get translated into ink.
You have no real rendering anywhere--all of your lines are linear--they trace the contours of the figures and nothing more. There are no textures or highlights or crosshatching. The only slight variation is when you shade in things with the side of your pencil--and inkers can't shade in things with the side of their pens.
When an inker goes and inks your art--he can't ink the outlines and fill in the blacks with lighter ink the way you did with a pencil. The is no shading with ink--it's either black or white and your work is peppered with grays. Fill in those blacks as you indicated and you'll have a mess because you have blacks butting blacks and once filled in you'll have huge pools of ink running together. Take panel one of page 2--once those blacks are filled in Ms. Marvel's boob vanishes, blending in with the background details and her legs become one giant, amorphous shape (and that ankle's pretty thick, by the way). Now, a decent inker will go in and outline everything and clean up that mess to make sense of it all but you can't bank on getting a decent inker. You should make it idiot-proof.
You need to better define what should be black and what should not be. You should indicate where you want highlights to be in order to define the shapes and you should play around with light sources.
Your work doesn't induce projectile vomiting. It's a bit stiff and the compositions aren't very interesting but your figure work is decent enough.
You need to work on composing a page to look interesting. Look at a MsFarlane page--the actual drawing itself isn't as realistic as yours is. His figure work is pretty wonky and there are numerous construction problems--but as a whole it's much more compelling to look at. The blacks are better placed, the figures are in interesting poses, there was thought put into the lighting and the page itself is better composed. In contrast, yours looks pretty bland.
At this point there are a thousand guys who do what you do better than you do. There's no incentive to give you work. Those guys are known quantities--you aren't--and in a line to get work--you're going straight to the end. You need to change that--and you can--but it means figuring out a lot of stuff and finding a unique voice of your own. Give an editor a reason to choose you over the next guy. What can you bring to a page that others can't? What quality is there in your work that isn't in somebody else's stuff? You need to differentiate yourself from the herd, learn how to render better, think about lighting and composition and bring in something unique otherwise you'll spend the rest of your life being a guy who can draw okay that never got that big break.
quote:Originally posted by Erik Larsen: You need to differentiate yourself from the herd, learn how to render better, think about lighting and composition and bring in something unique otherwise you'll spend the rest of your life being a guy who can draw okay that never got that big break.
Don't be that guy.
This is the one you need to listen to. As a guy who likes comicbooks, Jesse Hamm's advice is totally sound, and spot on. As a working cartoonist, how his suggestions align with whether you get work is really a shot in the dark (for example, some (many?) editors care nothing for storytelling, and would much prefer to see that cool jerk shot splash page...then again, you might get that one rare editor who actually remembers the comics before Wizard. You just never know).
Figure out what you want, and be that. If (Editor A) says no, find (Editor B) who says yes. And listen to Erik Larsen. I did.
quote:Originally posted by Erik Larsen: And no--I will NOT do this on a regular basis.
quote:Originally posted by Erik Larsen: And no--I will NOT do this on a regular basis.
Erik, I'm e-mailing you my screenplay. It's a three-part epic, if you're wondering why it's more than 1,000 pages. Send me your thoughts by Sunday, would'ja? Thanks! Love ya, baby!
Very nice of Jesse and Erik to offer their instructive and constructive criticism. I've read a million comic books, but as a non-professional, I don't automatically see what works and what doesn't work on a page. I hope Batfan noticed they both said he's got some good stuff going on (Erik perhaps phrased this a bit more colorfully), and with more work, he could be successful.
Posts: 5940 | From: Lexington, Ky. | Registered: Nov 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Jesse Hamm: Good effort, Erick. I'm glad to see you're eager for feedback, too. That attitude will help you improve quickly.
For what it's worth, here are some pointers and crits that come to mind:
PAGE 1
Don't include a splash page in your samples. This is your opportunity to show editors that you can tell a story; a splash page only shows that you can draw a picture. Use few pages, but let every page showcase your skills at panel-to-panel continuity.
The jets and Ms. Marvel all appear to be flying at slightly different angles. This is possible in real life, but in a drawing it tends to make the flying objects look like they occupy different scenes, as though the images were pasted together. To line these objects up along parallel flightpaths, you'd find a vanishing point (in this case, to the faaar lower left), and draw a line from that point through the center of each jet, and through MM's center (along her spine), constructing each object or character around those center guidelines.
Those creases you drew in the middle of the clouds (such as near MM's hand at the left page of the page) don't look like proper cloud textures. They look like fluttering bits of torn cloth; it's confusing.
MM's feet, legs, hips, bosom, and shoulders are convincingly drawn, but her hands are too small and her fingers are unconvincing. Also, since her head is angled upward away from the viewer, her chin should be shorter, not taller.
Don't grey colors in with your pencil, as you've done on MM's costume. That's impossible to translate into ink, and editors want see that you can anticipate the inker's needs. If you intend her costume to be black, indicate where the inker can leave highlights on her form, to distinguish the black parts from each other.
PAGE 2
panel 1
Again, it would be helpful to ensure that the flying objects are flying in the exact same direction, at least when their direction of flight is already so similar.
Your vanishing point is too high in this panel; it should rest on the horizon, with the lines of the landscape (and the jets) converging on it.
Try not to let objects at different distances come very near each other without overlapping. Doing so makes readers feel as though the objects occupy the same plane, instead of being far apart. Here, MM's head is *just* below the horizon line. If her head clearly overlapped the horizon, it would feel more like she is near and the horizon is far.
Nice work on MM's near leg and foot, but her ribcage appears to be hanging too low, and her far foot appears too short in comparison to the length of her shin. Her hands are again too small and unconvincing.
Drawing all of those little buildings is time-consuming, and all that detail distracts readers from the panel's key figures. From this distance, it would be sufficient to hint at the cityscape with a few silhouetted buildings and patches of detail. Editors need to know that you can keep readers focused on the important stuff, and that you know how and where to save time (ensuring that you'll meet your deadlines).
It's generally best to direct the action from left to right, since that's the order in which we read. So here, you should have MM and the jets flying slightly toward the right, instead of slightly toward the left. Likewise, in the second and third panels, it would be best to have the jets facing to the right. (This would also help those panels match better with panel 5, since staying on the same side of an object or character throughout a scene aids clarity.)
panel 2
The far jet is too hard to see in this panel. It would be better to shift our point of view, or the jets' positioning, so that the near jet won't block the far one. In samples especially, the reader must be given a clear idea of where everyone is in each panel.
panels 3-5
The freehand-drawn curves on this page appear amateurish. Invest in some ellipse templates, for drawing the smooth curves of jets and other vehicles. It will greatly improve the look of your machines.
The hatched shading lines in the last two panels (on the pilot's jacket and seat) are flimsy and noncommital. If you shade with lines, be bold and clear and make sure they are uniform and parallel.
MM's hair is too angular and ragged; it looks like her belt. Practice drawing hair that's smoother, more fluid.
PAGE 3
panel 1
Her hair here is a slight improvement, but could be smoother.
Breaking panel borders as MM does here is generally discouraged. It's especially confusing here because it looks as though MM is flying into that control room. (We know in our heads that she isn't doing that, but comics need to work on a gut level, and the overlapping here tells our gut that she's flying into the room even when our head denies it.)
panel 3
Nice angle and foreshortening on Nick Fury. However, he appears in the scene out of nowhere; it's impossible to tell where he is. Is he somewhere in that control room, or on the ship's exterior...? To avoid confusion, feature each key character clearly in the establishing shot before moving in for a close-up. It's also helpful to "tag" the close-up with some corresponding element from the establishing shot (such as a nearby railing or window), to help the reader connect the close-up with the previous shot.
panel 4
Again, we don't know where MM is in relation to the air ship. Also, her near fist leads our eye back into the second panel, by overlapping the border.
panel 5
The ship looks good. It would be helpful to add some small details here and there, like figures on the exterior deck, or tiny panelling or radio antennae, to give a sense of scale and help readers 'feel' how large the ship is.
hey Jesse
thanks for taking the time and really going into detail. I find that the things you brought up, in my head, i knew that's what i should have done but it's like i choked, i think that since i knew i was gonna send these to Marvel i second guessed and overthought a lot of the decisions i took and made, so it's like I sabotaged myself. I knew i shouldve added more detail to the aircraft. I knew i shouldve done a better job in rendering. I knew flipping the action on page 2 to go from left to right was the right thing, but i didnt do it, i choked. Lesson learned.
This rejection letter has turned out to be a blessing in disguise
-------------------- I'm tired of all this nonsense about beauty being only skin-deep. That's deep enough. What do you want, an adorable pancreas? Jean Kerr _ _ _ _ ______________________________________ _ _ _ _
they're the Ms Marvel pages found on the front page.
I actually wish the letter was more critical as opposed to just getting a form letter.
In case Erik Larsen stumbles upon this thread, could you give me a detailed critique?
Jesse Hamm is talking sense. Listen to him--but in addition to that:
The biggest problem I can see is that you have no line style or much of an idea of how pencils get translated into ink.
You have no real rendering anywhere--all of your lines are linear--they trace the contours of the figures and nothing more. There are no textures or highlights or crosshatching. The only slight variation is when you shade in things with the side of your pencil--and inkers can't shade in things with the side of their pens.
When an inker goes and inks your art--he can't ink the outlines and fill in the blacks with lighter ink the way you did with a pencil. The is no shading with ink--it's either black or white and your work is peppered with grays. Fill in those blacks as you indicated and you'll have a mess because you have blacks butting blacks and once filled in you'll have huge pools of ink running together. Take panel one of page 2--once those blacks are filled in Ms. Marvel's boob vanishes, blending in with the background details and her legs become one giant, amorphous shape (and that ankle's pretty thick, by the way). Now, a decent inker will go in and outline everything and clean up that mess to make sense of it all but you can't bank on getting a decent inker. You should make it idiot-proof.
You need to better define what should be black and what should not be. You should indicate where you want highlights to be in order to define the shapes and you should play around with light sources.
Your work doesn't induce projectile vomiting. It's a bit stiff and the compositions aren't very interesting but your figure work is decent enough.
You need to work on composing a page to look interesting. Look at a MsFarlane page--the actual drawing itself isn't as realistic as yours is. His figure work is pretty wonky and there are numerous construction problems--but as a whole it's much more compelling to look at. The blacks are better placed, the figures are in interesting poses, there was thought put into the lighting and the page itself is better composed. In contrast, yours looks pretty bland.
At this point there are a thousand guys who do what you do better than you do. There's no incentive to give you work. Those guys are known quantities--you aren't--and in a line to get work--you're going straight to the end. You need to change that--and you can--but it means figuring out a lot of stuff and finding a unique voice of your own. Give an editor a reason to choose you over the next guy. What can you bring to a page that others can't? What quality is there in your work that isn't in somebody else's stuff? You need to differentiate yourself from the herd, learn how to render better, think about lighting and composition and bring in something unique otherwise you'll spend the rest of your life being a guy who can draw okay that never got that big break.
Don't be that guy.
***************
And no--I will NOT do this on a regular basis.
Hey Erik I hope you didnt feel like i put you on the spot or anything, i only had my fingers crossed hoping you'd say something like "You need more work. Still a ways a away. 'Nuff said" so i really do appreciate you taking the time to add your insight.
-------------------- I'm tired of all this nonsense about beauty being only skin-deep. That's deep enough. What do you want, an adorable pancreas? Jean Kerr _ _ _ _ ______________________________________ _ _ _ _
posted
Hey Erik one last question: Do submission editors get pissy if i show them pages not featuring their characters? specifically Marvel and DC. I was planning on doing my next pages featuring DC characters, when im done with these should i bother to even send them to Marvel? I know publishers like Top Cow or Aspen say it's not a problem using other established characters for submissions but i dont want to get on the wrong foot with an Marvel editor if i send them pages with DC characters.
-------------------- I'm tired of all this nonsense about beauty being only skin-deep. That's deep enough. What do you want, an adorable pancreas? Jean Kerr _ _ _ _ ______________________________________ _ _ _ _
posted
I'm not Erik, but here's two more of my cents:
1. I doubt your next set of pages will be good enough to break in at the majors. Your work shows promise, but I think you'll need to put in several more months drawing dozens and dozens of pages (at least) before you'll be ready to impress editors.
2. Marvel used to insist that your submissions feature their characters, since they know their characters well and can see whether you handle them properly. However, I once showed my samples featuring a Marvel character to Marvel's (then) Editor-in-Chief, and I got two surprises: (i) he didn't even recognize the character. (ii) he told me I was ready to work for Marvel.
The lesson here is that it doesn't matter what characters you draw, as long as your art looks good. (Also, the Marvel submissions guide no longer includes the "Marvel characters only" stipulation.)
-------------------- ........................ jessehamm.com Posts: 557 | From: Lodi, CA, USA | Registered: Sep 2001
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