They also have a cool flickr photostream. Lots of cute shots of their dogs and what meals they ate recently (plus convention photos if you're into that sort of thing). Posts: 908 | From: Salem, MA, USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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I suspect we're talking at cross-purposes here. Recommend a particular title to a customer? Sure--that's a given.
But I thought we were talking about actual promotion--you know, setting up a special display, offering a discount, things like that.
And there isn't a business in the world--outside of the comics biz--where manufacturers expect retailers to do that sort of thing without a contribution from the manufacturer.
-------------------- Best, Pat Posts: 3036 | From: PA, USA | Registered: Aug 1999
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I suspect we're talking at cross-purposes here. Recommend a particular title to a customer? Sure--that's a given.
But I thought we were talking about actual promotion--you know, setting up a special display, offering a discount, things like that.
And there isn't a business in the world--outside of the comics biz--where manufacturers expect retailers to do that sort of thing without a contribution from the manufacturer.
Who said anything about spending money on buying promotional displays?
Posts: 5278 | From: Cleveland Heights, Ohio | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:stephen: Granted. I was attempting to suggest that a fan of these artists wouldn't be served at a regular retail venue.
I hadn't realized that "tiny independents" that were to be discussed would be Cross Gen, Image and Boom.
I'm in the wrong thread- carry on.
I think you're right on, but trying to explain why truly independent work isn't going to fare well in a corporate-dominated marketplace is going to fall on deaf ears when those ears belong to someone who only buys what's easily presented to them (i.e., through corporate/mainstream channels).
-------------------- The Gospel, wherein much Truth is written. Posts: 7114 | From: us of fuckin' a | Registered: Aug 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Charles Reece: ...but trying to explain why truly independent work isn't going to fare well in a corporate-dominated marketplace is going to fall on deaf ears when those ears belong to someone who only buys what's easily presented to them (i.e., through corporate/mainstream channels).
Speaking as someone who is all too often guilty of exactly what your saying, you are absolutely right.
Why should comics be any different than any other media. It shouldn't be easy.
Posts: 5278 | From: Cleveland Heights, Ohio | Registered: Jun 2001
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Charles blames the 6.2 billion Earthlings who aren't reading his favorite obscure comics for not knowing about them.
It reminds me of the faux-hipsters in college who complained about corporate music, but then burst into tears when they realized that someone else had heard of their favorite band.
Posts: 6244 | From: Lexington, Ky. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Why oh why didn't Iannis Xenakis' agent just sign that deal with BMW to have his client's music prominently featured in one of their ads, so that Lawson wouldn't have to expend any energy in trying something different? That's not fair, he didn't make rock music. The Boredoms will be a household name when their new album is released on the Starbucks label.
If you don't want to be constrained by the mainstream, Lawson, you have to try. That's a basic fact of life. The availability of good comics, films and music has never been easier, so complaining because you're not being spoon-fed anything different is just a sign of bourgeois laziness.
-------------------- The Gospel, wherein much Truth is written. Posts: 7114 | From: us of fuckin' a | Registered: Aug 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Charles Reece: If you don't want to be constrained by the mainstream, Lawson, you have to try. That's a basic fact of life. The availability of good comics, films and music has never been easier, so complaining because you're not being spoon-fed anything different is just a sign of bourgeois laziness.
Jesus, do I have to recite my bona fides again for you? I read a fairly decent amount of indie stuff, from LOVE & ROCKETS to CONCRETE to BERLIN to PEEPSHOW to stuff I've only seen one issue of at conventions and can't remember the name of without having to look through the long boxes.
No one thinks they're as cool as you are, Charles, when it comes to comic book consumption, but we try to keep up.
The issue here is, how can we make it easier to get comics from tiny indie publishers into the hands of more customers in stores? In a crowded market, how can we get more attention for li'l publishers that many of us may never have heard of? How can we create a bigger potential audience for this stuff? If you don't think it's a problem in the first place -- if you're content to sneer about people not making sufficient effort to track down relatively unknown comics with a circulation of 1,500 -- then you're in the wrong thread. Start a thread called "Charles reads BOBO THE FROWNING CLOWN so you don't have to find the damn thing."
Posts: 6244 | From: Lexington, Ky. | Registered: Nov 2002
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-------------------- Words fail the system people only know words as a cover up tool in order to describe things. -Cory Fuka Posts: 2170 | From: redford,mi,usa | Registered: Feb 1999
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quote:The issue here is, how can we make it easier to get comics from tiny indie publishers into the hands of more customers in stores? In a crowded market, how can we get more attention for li'l publishers that many of us may never have heard of? How can we create a bigger potential audience for this stuff? If you don't think it's a problem in the first place -- if you're content to sneer about people not making sufficient effort to track down relatively unknown comics with a circulation of 1,500 -- then you're in the wrong thread.
"Let's not let the American people [...] off the hook." A fellow poster said that to me on another thread, and I agree with it. I've heard nothing from you or Pat or whomever regarding some structural solution to the problem that smaller independent publishers do not control the channels of distribution. This is true across the board for art, regardless of the format (films, comics, music, books, magazines, etc.). The best solution in terms of non-mainstream comics that I've heard is the one I mentioned: having the publisher or individual artist hook up with a major book dealer to avoid having to solely rely on the unresponsive direct market of the comics industry. It's an old battle, the independent voice versus the mainstream machine, and blaming an independently minded artist or publisher of such artists for failing to participate successfully within the mainstream system to the degree that the mainstream artists do completely ignores what makes the mainstream "mainstream." The funny thing about the majority of independent comics is that their narrative content tends to coincide with the mainstream in books, only with pictures. That's what makes it feasible to circumvent the comics mainstream's dominance in the comics industry by going the book store route. So, if you've got some solution to making the comics mainstream consist of something other than what it currently consists of, let's hear it. I just take it that there will always be a mainstream, and that non-mainstream types (creators and audience alike) will have to continue to put a bit of effort into getting the kind of art that they want. The mainstream channels are never going to make it as easy as they do for the material that constitutes the mainstream. That's why the mainstream is the majority and the majority is the mainstream. Is it the people's fault that McDonalds exists everywhere, but not good Indian cuisine? How do the citizens of Beaumont, Texas know that they prefer mass produced faux burgers to really good chicken korma if they've never had the latter? At some point, the individual has to accept some responsibility for his ignorance, but that doesn't mean that the system isn't culpable for being set up to reinforce a closeted, controlled existence.
-------------------- The Gospel, wherein much Truth is written. Posts: 7114 | From: us of fuckin' a | Registered: Aug 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Lawson: The issue here is, how can we make it easier to get comics from tiny indie publishers into the hands of more customers in stores?
ComicSpace was already mentioned. Personally, I think the MySpace interface is a lousy design, but at least you know everybody on ComicSpace is into comics.
If you really want to find some obscure stuff, check out the on-demand printing services. ComixPress, KaBlam, SIPS and Lulu. These offer things that aren't even distributed through Diamond. Most of it, probably rightfully so. But there are some gems in there.
Posts: 1397 | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Pat ONeill: Let me ask you this. Does your local supermarket carry Coke? [...] Coke pays the supermarket to push Coke...through special discounts, co-op ad campaigns, etc. 2. The vast majority of the supermarket's customers buy Coke.
Coke is not art. It's not even entertainment.
Posts: 1397 | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Pat ONeill: Let me ask you this. Does your local supermarket carry Coke? [...] Coke pays the supermarket to push Coke...through special discounts, co-op ad campaigns, etc. 2. The vast majority of the supermarket's customers buy Coke.
Coke is not art. It's not even entertainment.
No, but it's sure marketed well. Everyone knows it, and it's logo is recognizable across the whole planet.
Purely in terms of sales strategy, it's a major success.
-------------------- Elliot's forum - The Chaos Cascade - welcomes all nice people. Posts: 2337 | From: London, England | Registered: Aug 2001
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I agree that I could spend more time and effort searching out tiny indie comics. The Web makes this a lot easier than it used to be. And I'll try to work on that ... within reason. I've got a life to live, and frankly, I don't always have the time to go searching the Interwub for the latest 200-page autobiographical graphic novel about someone's unhappy suburban childhood. If it's on a shelf in front of me, I'll probably look at it.
Last year, I read an interview with Peter Bagge, the great alt comics cartoonist, who said he reads very few alternative or indie comics anymore.
Bagge said he's sure there is still a lot of good stuff being published -- he sees it at conventions or when people mail it to him -- but on a daily basis, he said, you have to search for that stuff at a handful of specialty stores (not just a comics shop, but a "hipster" comics shop) or at particular Web sites.
And, Bagge said, he's in his 40s, he's got a wife and family and a house, he's got a full-time job, so it's not like when he was a young fanboy and he could devote so much time to the hunt.
Bagge said it's not unusual for him to go to a big convention once a year, grab a few issues of a cool indie comic, ask what happened to it, and be told, "It's cancelled, nobody bought it." Bagge said that always makes him feel a little guilty, but he wasn't going to cancel his daughter's softball practice so he could make time to track down that struggling cartoonist and hand the dude money.
Oddly enough, Bagge seldom made me go track him down to hand him money. Fantagraphics usually gets its titles into most comics shops I've been to. I discovered Bagge's HATE (and LOVE & ROCKETS and NAUGHTY BITS and a bunch of other Fanta stuff) because it was sitting in front of me and looked cool. What did Gary Groth do right? Why can't BOOM!, BANG! and BADOOM! do the same thing?
Posts: 6244 | From: Lexington, Ky. | Registered: Nov 2002
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"the latest 200-page autobiographical graphic novel about someone's unhappy suburban childhood" -- isn't that pretty much one of the major stories in HATE?
quote:Originally posted by Lawson: Oddly enough, Bagge seldom made me go track him down to hand him money. Fantagraphics usually gets its titles into most comics shops I've been to. I discovered Bagge's HATE (and LOVE & ROCKETS and NAUGHTY BITS and a bunch of other Fanta stuff) because it was sitting in front of me and looked cool. What did Gary Groth do right? Why can't BOOM!, BANG! and BADOOM! do the same thing?
I'd venture to say that Boom™ Bang™ and Pow™ comics are mining the same narrow vein that is already paid out. There's only so much $ these poor guys can shell out so they stick with their faves. Fantagraphics, Drawn and Quarterly, Top Shelf, Oni et al obviously offer an alternative from Superpeople allowing active store owners and managers to recognize that there are a lot of people out there that might be interested in something else. A different costumed character isn't a different menu item it's just supersizing what you've already ordered when you're already full.
I'm not attempting to bring up the two solitudes- mainstream and alternative can happily co-exist: a good comic is a good comic is a good comic- but there is less a convergence than I once thought there should be.
Back when I worked in a comic shop I used to point out some titles and creators that I thought were doing strong stuff and some folks happily bought in while others would turn away in disgust. Fair enough. I am long past surprise when people give reasons such as "too cartoony" or "but it's not in colour" just as I don't wonder why Will Ferrell fans aren't lining up for the Kurosawa retrospective (for the record I understand there's probably fans of both on this thread, I'm just saying...).
I still go through the catalogue relatively frequently with a friend who helps runs a store and point out things that that might be worthwhile ordering that they might normally pass on. They tend to be a bit more conservative than in the past and that is likely the case with most stores-- so we come full circle.
Biff™ Pow™ and Cross-Bang™ comics are trying to eat into an already depleted audience. You can't really blame the guy paying the bills for not buying from these new publishers when the recent history has shown their potential fans are already tapped out.
I'm happy to see that you've found stores that support Fantagraphics because you can rest assured most do not. The ideal comic shop should carry stuff for boys, girls, men, women, fanboys, hipsters and curious consumers looking for Garfield. There are about six such stores N.American wide.
So how can tiny publishers put themselves into comic shops? By offering something exceptional that isn't already offered. By actively courting the dealers that are known supporters of new creators. By networking at the good large cons around the continent ($$,yes). And by having a good net presence- both site and messboards.
None of that is foolproof. Just ask Eric Larson who, as a publisher, has done a pretty good job of all that.
quote:Originally posted by stephen: I'm happy to see that you've found stores that support Fantagraphics because you can rest assured most do not. The ideal comic shop should carry stuff for boys, girls, men, women, fanboys, hipsters and curious consumers looking for Garfield. There are about six such stores N.American wide.
So how can tiny publishers put themselves into comic shops? By offering something exceptional that isn't already offered. By actively courting the dealers that are known supporters of new creators. By networking at the good large cons around the continent ($$,yes). And by having a good net presence- both site and messboards.
Damn right. I can't say I would ever trust a comics shop owner (especially in this mean economy) to find books to my taste when they're just trying to make the rent. 'Cause it sure ain't 52 Infinite Final Secret Invasion Crises. It's up to me, as a consumer, to find stuff I like. Or not. (It's also up to me, as a consumer, to find a shop/online outlet that is going to service my jones. BIG reason why I abandoned my LCS about 52 weeks ago.) It's also up to me, as a cartoonist, to get my stuff noticed in the marketplace. Or not. And if I can't find stuff to buy, or can't get my stuff noticed, then that's the breaks in an allegedly free economy. Tough (stuff) otherwise.
Harsh? Well, yeah, probably. But no one promised anyone a free ride. (Well, except for maybe Dandidio.)
Posts: 1327 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Pat ONeill: Let me ask you this. Does your local supermarket carry Coke? [...] Coke pays the supermarket to push Coke...through special discounts, co-op ad campaigns, etc. 2. The vast majority of the supermarket's customers buy Coke.
Coke is not art. It's not even entertainment.
No, but it's sure marketed well. Everyone knows it, and it's logo is recognizable across the whole planet.
Purely in terms of sales strategy, it's a major success.
You're comparing art/entertainment to a soft drink, a static consumer product. And then wonder why you get "events" like Spider-Man: One More Gay and DCU: Anal Crisis.
Posts: 1397 | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Charles Reece: [Was the image function turned off again?]
I think the image function still works in the "News, Announcements, and Gossip" forum, but only there now.
Posts: 908 | From: Salem, MA, USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Lawson: Last year, I read an interview with Peter Bagge, the great alt comics cartoonist, who said he reads very few alternative or indie comics anymore.
You really want to use Bagge's example as a measuring stick of enthusiasm for the art form? Bagge is a comics outsider who never gave a shit about the medium, beyond how he could make money with it.
Seek out Bagge's essay on Ditko era Spider-Man in COMICS COMICS, referring mainly to his "Megalomaniacal Spider-Man" one-shot. Bagge got paid to parody not only Spider-Man, but also Steve Ditko. And then he has the nerve, in his essay, to slag on Ditko's art and even attempt psychological evaluations based on the way Ditko draws faces? *PETER BAGGE* slagging on STEVE DITKO's art? Are you fucking kidding me?? I've seen better drawings on bathroom walls than anything Bagge ever did.
Peter Bagge is a worthless piece of shit, based solely on his work. That he's too lazy, cheap, arrogant and self-centered to support the efforts of others in the comics industry, is really just fitting.
Posts: 1397 | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Charles Reece: "the latest 200-page autobiographical graphic novel about someone's unhappy suburban childhood" -- isn't that pretty much one of the major stories in HATE?
If that's all you got out of HATE, you are not nearly as astute as you think you are.
-------------------- Words fail the system people only know words as a cover up tool in order to describe things. -Cory Fuka Posts: 2170 | From: redford,mi,usa | Registered: Feb 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Lawson: Last year, I read an interview with Peter Bagge, the great alt comics cartoonist, who said he reads very few alternative or indie comics anymore.
You really want to use Bagge's example as a measuring stick of enthusiasm for the art form? Bagge is a comics outsider who never gave a shit about the medium, beyond how he could make money with it.
Seek out Bagge's essay on Ditko era Spider-Man in COMICS COMICS, referring mainly to his "Megalomaniacal Spider-Man" one-shot. Bagge got paid to parody not only Spider-Man, but also Steve Ditko. And then he has the nerve, in his essay, to slag on Ditko's art and even attempt psychological evaluations based on the way Ditko draws faces? *PETER BAGGE* slagging on STEVE DITKO's art? Are you fucking kidding me?? I've seen better drawings on bathroom walls than anything Bagge ever did.
Peter Bagge is a worthless piece of shit, based solely on his work. That he's too lazy, cheap, arrogant and self-centered to support the efforts of others in the comics industry, is really just fitting.
In the long line of stupid ass posts on this board this is far and above the stupidest. You don't know the first thing about Bagge if that's what you think of him.
-------------------- Words fail the system people only know words as a cover up tool in order to describe things. -Cory Fuka Posts: 2170 | From: redford,mi,usa | Registered: Feb 1999
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Think what you like, that's still the stupidest thing ever posted here. And next be a man and spell out your insults, FUCKTARD.
-------------------- Words fail the system people only know words as a cover up tool in order to describe things. -Cory Fuka Posts: 2170 | From: redford,mi,usa | Registered: Feb 1999
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quote:Originally posted by Pat ONeill: Let me ask you this. Does your local supermarket carry Coke? [...] Coke pays the supermarket to push Coke...through special discounts, co-op ad campaigns, etc. 2. The vast majority of the supermarket's customers buy Coke.
Coke is not art. It's not even entertainment.
No, but it's sure marketed well. Everyone knows it, and it's logo is recognizable across the whole planet.
Purely in terms of sales strategy, it's a major success.
You're comparing art/entertainment to a soft drink, a static consumer product. And then wonder why you get "events" like Spider-Man: One More Gay and DCU: Anal Crisis.
Actually, I'm comparing a marketing campaign with another marketing campaign.
And homophobia really doesn't help make your point...
-------------------- Elliot's forum - The Chaos Cascade - welcomes all nice people. Posts: 2337 | From: London, England | Registered: Aug 2001
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That's not homophobia. It's just good old fashioned comedy.
-------------------- The Man of Mettle Posts: 4000 | From: The MBA (Mysterious Blue Area) of the MMM (Mighty Marvel Moon), Nagga (Pal) | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Originally posted by necrotechno: You really want to use Bagge's example as a measuring stick of enthusiasm for the art form? Bagge is a comics outsider who never gave a shit about the medium, beyond how he could make money with it.
I disagree. Bagge may not have liked Steve Ditko's artwork -- I'm not familiar with his comments that you referenced -- but back when he produced HATE! on a regular basis, he gave space in the back of his book to features by other indie cartoonists, and he published reviews and lists of other indie comics that had caught his eye. I bought and enjoyed at least one indie comic title with a very, very small press run because Bagge praised it in HATE! Otherwise, I doubt more than 100 people on Earth would have heard of it.
Bagge may not like all the comics that we like, but he has shown great affection for and support of his fellow indie cartoonists.
Getting back to the point, Bagge and the rest of the Fantagraphics crew are regulars in most comics shops I've visited. As are a few other indie publishers, like Drawn & Quarterly and ONI Press, even if they get the less valuable shelf space toward the rear of the store. So it's obviously not impossible for these little guys to poke their heads through the concrete.
Posts: 6244 | From: Lexington, Ky. | Registered: Nov 2002
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quote:Originally posted by necrotechno: You really want to use Bagge's example as a measuring stick of enthusiasm for the art form? Bagge is a comics outsider who never gave a shit about the medium, beyond how he could make money with it.
I disagree. Bagge may not have liked Steve Ditko's artwork -- I'm not familiar with his comments that you referenced -- but back when he produced HATE! on a regular basis, he gave space in the back of his book to features by other indie cartoonists, and he published reviews and lists of other indie comics that had caught his eye. I bought and enjoyed at least one indie comic title with a very, very small press run because Bagge praised it in HATE! Otherwise, I doubt more than 100 people on Earth would have heard of it.
Bagge may not like all the comics that we like, but he has shown great affection for and support of his fellow indie cartoonists.
Agreed. Bagge edited Crumb's anthology Weirdo for years after Crumb left working closely with dozens of cartoonists. He later attempted a slight anthology feel in his last few issues of Hate giving people like Jim Blanchard and Crumb some pages. Like most of us here, though, his prioritees have shifted as he's aged and the concerns of the twenty-somethings aren't exactly his concerns any more so he skips out from wading through artists alley-- I certainly can empathize.
quote: Getting back to the point, Bagge and the rest of the Fantagraphics crew are regulars in most comics shops I've visited. As are a few other indie publishers, like Drawn & Quarterly and ONI Press, even if they get the less valuable shelf space toward the rear of the store. So it's obviously not impossible for these little guys to poke their heads through the concrete.
You've mentioned that and I think it's great that you've found some stores that give a more balanced representation to the medium than Marvel and DC. Again, though, these shops are still in the minority while the others can become pretty bullheaded about what they won't carry- even to the point of losing money.
"That stuff doesn't sell here" can be a self-fulfilling prophesy. If a shop "decorates" its musty walls with taped up posters of Lady Death or Hard To Kill Whore™ they m
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