posted
I've decided to make a comic book. I wrote the story and I'm working with an artist whom I'm paying..
What i need is help on making up a contract that specifies who owns what and who has rights to what. The simple and easiest thing to do is to pay the artist in a work for hire contract but that would be at least double his freelance rate (which is pretty high and about what I can afford to pay for.)
So work for hire is not an option at this point.
Now I want to be fair but I feel that since I'm paying for everything and taking the most risk I need to have a contract that states what my rights are and the artist's about not just the comic but any merchandising and other venues..
We aren't 50/50 partners since hes not taking 50% of the risk..but I do agree that he should be compensated for any success and usage of the characters we create together.
what kind of contract do I need that clearly takes those things into consideration and spells out who gets what in terms of rights and usage and percentage?
Posts: 6 | Registered: Feb 2008
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posted
When I started working on The Middleman the writer and I agreed to split the property 75%/25% on top of a modest page rate. That's worked out pretty well for us.
posted
Frankly, Logan, I don't see "paying for everything and taking the most risk" as good justification for taking most of the profits. The fact that you wrote the story might entitle you to a greater percentage of the profits, depending on how much the artist brought to the process. Did he design characters and settings? Did he influence the pacing and mood of the story?
In any case, feel free to negotiate with the artist for whatever the two of you can agree on.
I haven't read it carefully myself, but it has the name of Jean-Marc Lofficier at the bottom, a respected professional with some experience in collaboration (he worked with Moebius for a while). So that might be a place to start. And talking to a lawyer is always a good idea too.
Best wishes!
Posts: 892 | From: Salem, MA, USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
There's the Writer's Guide to the Business of Comics and the Artist's Guide to the Business of Comics,both are by Lurene Haines and both include sample contracts and are available for cheap at Amazon.com. Good Luck!
Posts: 536 | From: Tallahassee,FL | Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Peter Urkowitz: Frankly, Logan, I don't see "paying for everything and taking the most risk" as good justification for taking most of the profits.
If it didn't, why would anyone ever pay for everything and take the most risk in any project? With all due respect to talent, it's the person who bears the price of failure that should enjoy the fruits of success.
And are there standard business laws that apply in this situation in the absence of a specific contract or provision within a contract? For example, if you die without a will, the will step in and equally divide your estate among your immediate relatives. If you create a comic book with another person, is their some fallback division of rights and ownership that automatically take effect, or would you always have to go to court over it?
Mike
Posts: 1654 | From: Waterloo, Iowa, United States | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by MBunge: If it didn't, why would anyone ever pay for everything and take the most risk in any project? With all due respect to talent, it's the person who bears the price of failure that should enjoy the fruits of success.
Skip comics man, you sound perfectly suited for one of them there lucrative corporate overlord jobs.
Another way to handle it is to just have the upfront investment come out of the profits first as part of the agreement, and it would be smart to factor in the costs for the next issue as well. Make the project pay for itself. Anything after costs is then split, thus potentially minimizing the financial risk.
If anyone is that concerned about ownership, maybe they should wait until they can pay for the work outright, but if like the man said "...work for hire is not an option at this point," he's going to have to give up something of worth, for someone else to RISK working on the project. Probably more than 25%, but you never know, someone might do it. He's asking for quite an investment from an artist, time and effort and cost of art supplies etc..., presumably the artist has a computer, software printers scanner, (fully functioning art studios don't grow on trees).
Posts: 5270 | From: Cleveland Heights, Ohio | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Joe Lee: Skip comics man, you sound perfectly suited for one of them there lucrative corporate overlord jobs.
Another way to handle it is to just have the upfront investment come out of the profits first as part of the agreement, and it would be smart to factor in the costs for the next issue as well. Make the project pay for itself. Anything after costs is then split, thus potentially minimizing the financial risk.
Sorry, I don't get the snark. But then I'm not real familiar with the humor of the 1930s Socialist set. I just don't see what's objectionable about saying that the person taking the risk if the project doesn't pay for itself should also get the greater benefit if it does.
Mike
Posts: 1654 | From: Waterloo, Iowa, United States | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I should mention that on the Middleman comics I was getting about $1500 an issue as a page rate, half of the profits from comic sales, and 25% ownership in the property.
Also, as the series progressed we raised my page rate.
It worked out when we sold it as a TV show-- the writer is executive producer on the new show, as well as head writer, so he gets all the profit from that, and I just get a nice check for 25% of the royalty fee for every episode.
quote:Originally posted by MBunge: Sorry, I don't get the snark. But then I'm not real familiar with the humor of the 1930s Socialist set. I just don't see what's objectionable about saying that the person taking the risk if the project doesn't pay for itself should also get the greater benefit if it does.
Mike
So it's socialism to negotiate the best deal you can, in a free market? And where did I say that the guy shouldn't get a larger piece of the pie? All I said was if the guy can't afford to pay much, or anything, he'd have to expect to give up something to get an artist to risk all the time and effort and materials on a project with an unproven author, (Assuming logan isn't a professional writer with any experience, hopefully he'll correct me if I'm wrong here...). You have to bring SOMETHING to the negotiating table besides just righteous indignation and name calling.
Are you saying an artist isn't taking any risk investing his time and effort and materials on a project? Does that sales pitch work on many prospective artists?
The scenario the Mr. McClaine is describing seems to be pretty much the best case scenario. And he got both a page rate AND a piece of the pie.
Posts: 5270 | From: Cleveland Heights, Ohio | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Joe Lee: So it's socialism to negotiate the best deal you can, in a free market? And where did I say that the guy shouldn't get a larger piece of the pie? All I said was if the guy can't afford to pay much, or anything, he'd have to expect to give up something to get an artist to risk all the time and effort and materials on a project with an unproven author, (Assuming logan isn't a professional writer with any experience, hopefully he'll correct me if I'm wrong here...). You have to bring SOMETHING to the negotiating table besides just righteous indignation and name calling.
Are you saying an artist isn't taking any risk investing his time and effort and materials on a project? Does that sales pitch work on many prospective artists?
The scenario the Mr. McClaine is describing seems to be pretty much the best case scenario. And he got both a page rate AND a piece of the pie.
i'm not opposed to the artist getting a piece of the pie i'm just trying to cover all my bases and figure out exactly how much that piece should be.
Also I'm paying his quoted page rate so I assume that compensates him for his time, effort and materials..otherwise what am I actually paying for in the first place?
I'm the only one taking a real risk business wise...I'm paying for everything (the artist, the printing, etc) and if this venture doesn't work out (and I understand the odds are against me..i hate sounding pessimistic..but i'm being realistic)I walk away with not just nothing but a financial negative (in this economy and day) while the artist leaves with money from work AND copyright of the characters which could be used at his discretion for profit excluding me.
But overall I'm taking the biggest risk since I'm banking on it being successful.
But I'm very interested in Les McClaines deal and that sounds about fair to me..
Posts: 6 | Registered: Feb 2008
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quote:Originally posted by logan wycked: i'm not opposed to the artist getting a piece of the pie i'm just trying to cover all my bases and figure out exactly how much that piece should be.
Also I'm paying his quoted page rate so I assume that compensates him for his time, effort and materials..otherwise what am I actually paying for in the first place?
It sounds like you're doing the right thing, Logan, and trying to do it the right way.
Just recognize, though, that the artist is not a plumber or carpenter. Even if you compensate him for his "time, effort, and materials," the work that he helps create is a piece of intellectual property, and therefore it makes sense for him to retain some ownership of it after it is created, and to be compensated for future uses of it as well as for first use.
Also, remember that taking the financial risk of being your own publisher is not the only way to go. You could also try working up just a proposal, with maybe a portion of a first issue completed, and shopping that around to existing publishers.
If you did that, what percentage of ownership would you be willing to give up to the publisher? 10%? 20%? 50%? Whatever the percentage, then maybe that's what you should ask for as your own "publisher cut," and divide the rest between yourself (as the writer) and the artist however the two of you agree is fair. Maybe that would help you sort out how much the financial risk is worth to you.
Again, best wishes!
Posts: 892 | From: Salem, MA, USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by logan wycked: the artist leaves with money from work AND copyright of the characters which could be used at his discretion for profit excluding me.
One more thing: you would also be entitled to your same cut of any use of the characters that the artist did on his own, you would not be excluded. And depending on how you negotiate the contract, you may or may not retain right of refusal for any such use. That's the kind of detail that you probably need a lawyer to help you with.
Posts: 892 | From: Salem, MA, USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Peter Urkowitz: It sounds like you're doing the right thing, Logan, and trying to do it the right way.
Just recognize, though, that the artist is not a plumber or carpenter. Even if you compensate him for his "time, effort, and materials," the work that he helps create is a piece of intellectual property, and therefore it makes sense for him to retain some ownership of it after it is created, and to be compensated for future uses of it as well as for first use.
Also, remember that taking the financial risk of being your own publisher is not the only way to go. You could also try working up just a proposal, with maybe a portion of a first issue completed, and shopping that around to existing publishers.
If you did that, what percentage of ownership would you be willing to give up to the publisher? 10%? 20%? 50%? Whatever the percentage, then maybe that's what you should ask for as your own "publisher cut," and divide the rest between yourself (as the writer) and the artist however the two of you agree is fair. Maybe that would help you sort out how much the financial risk is worth to you.
Again, best wishes!
thanx peter..actually thats the basic plan..to shop it first and see whats out there and if I don't get any responses then to self publish..but I definitely want to work out whats whats between the artist and I.
Posts: 6 | Registered: Feb 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Peter Urkowitz: If you did that, what percentage of ownership would you be willing to give up to the publisher? 10%? 20%? 50%? Whatever the percentage, then maybe that's what you should ask for as your own "publisher cut," and divide the rest between yourself (as the writer) and the artist however the two of you agree is fair. Maybe that would help you sort out how much the financial risk is worth to you.
Hey, that sounds like a great way to figure a fair percentage when one person is also taking on the publisher role.
Posts: 5270 | From: Cleveland Heights, Ohio | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I think Peter's on to something. While it's reasonable to argue that a writer/artist would split properties 50/50 for their contributions, you can't forget the cut that goes to the publisher (or whatever the print equivelant is to the producer). Since you're filling that role too, you should get that cut as well.
So in the end, if you split it three ways (assuming there aren't any inkers or colorists seperate from your artist) then you could say 33% to the writer, 33% to the artist and 33% to the publisher (and, I guess, 1% to your favorite charities). You'd get to pocket 66% of the ownership to his 33%, which sounds a bit in line with what you're looking for.
Posts: 301 | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Fletch: I think Peter's on to something. While it's reasonable to argue that a writer/artist would split properties 50/50 for their contributions, you can't forget the cut that goes to the publisher (or whatever the print equivelant is to the producer). Since you're filling that role too, you should get that cut as well.
So in the end, if you split it three ways (assuming there aren't any inkers or colorists seperate from your artist) then you could say 33% to the writer, 33% to the artist and 33% to the publisher (and, I guess, 1% to your favorite charities). You'd get to pocket 66% of the ownership to his 33%, which sounds a bit in line with what you're looking for.
okay here's where we get into the nitty gritty of the issue.. i'm paying him for his contribution.. he has a page rate for his art..no one is paying me to write it..
so lets forget the publisher part for a second.. the way I see it..if it were just the writer (me) and the artist (him) both doing work for no pay just pooling our talent and resources then I see a 50/50 split.
But in this case the writer (me) is essentially working for free and PAYING the artist (him) for his contribution. In that situation I don't see a 50/50 split because he's not taking 50% of the risk.
If the comic goes nowhere at the very least he still walks away with his artist fee paid. I (the writer) on the otherhand walk away with nothing. But thats not where the complication is..
The issue (for me) isn't if this fails but if its successful then what are his rights and how much should be get in terms of profits and royalties and share in merchandising etc? I KNOW its not a 50/50 split between the writer and artist because again the writer PAID the artist and the artist isn't/didn't take 50% of the risk.
Posts: 6 | Registered: Feb 2008
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posted
I don't think work-made-for-hire is ever ethical, so the artist is entitled to some percentage of ownership. I suggest, off the top of my head, that for these particular circumstances he should get 25 percent. Arbitrary, but that's what seems fair to me.
I absolutely reject the suggestion that, because it can take the artist more time to do his share of the work, he should get paid more than the writer. Unless you're both employed by the publisher and getting an hourly rate, this is insulting to the writer.
As well as the question of ownership, there's the question of control. If Joel Silver likes this comic and wants to make a movie out of it, and the writer wants to but the artist doesn't, does the movie get made or not? If a T-shirt manufacturer wants to put a picture of the character on the shirt, who decides that, and how do the writer and artist split the royalties on that (seeing as the writer's contribution to the shirt qua shirt is nil)?
Posts: 8 | Registered: Feb 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Les McClaine: I should mention that on the Middleman comics I was getting about $1500 an issue as a page rate, half of the profits from comic sales, and 25% ownership in the property.
Also, as the series progressed we raised my page rate.
It worked out when we sold it as a TV show-- the writer is executive producer on the new show, as well as head writer, so he gets all the profit from that, and I just get a nice check for 25% of the royalty fee for every episode.
Les' deal on The Middleman does sound imminently fair to me, and it's worked out especially well now that it's become a TV show.
Les, you're our hero and role model! Posts: 892 | From: Salem, MA, USA | Registered: Aug 2000
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Logan, this is a great topic. I really appreciate the thought in it and Peter thanks for the reference to an existing contract. I will print it out.
I agree wholeheartedly that you should try to negotiate the best contract you can for yourself. Here is what I wonder about though. Having worked for many fledgling companies I have come to realize that in some cases I will not get what the publisher and I have agreed on because of the incompetency or the ignorance of the person I have made my agreement with. In other cases the people I have worked for have come to realize that they don't actually have to pay their talent. More talent will come out of the woodwork, even if they have a reputation for not paying people.
Yet, if you are honest and have a big wad of money to pay people, others will still be suspicious of you, and they should be. You probably don't have the money to pay Marvel or DC rates, let alone in advance, so you are going to be working with semi-pros who may be enormously talented but will take a lower page rate to have a bit of "fun" working as a comic creator. How can you get the best work from them? How can you get it done on time? How can you get additional issues from them if the story clicks?
Well, many incentives exist but you have to balance things out when trying to get the best deal for yourself. I suggest a kill fee, partial ownership (even if it is only 10%), a percentage of profits on the comics if they sell over a certain number, their name on the cover of the book, very little editing of the artwork and most of that done in house if they so request it, and transparency in bookkeeping.
I realize that I am not the guy with the money, you are. My point of view is from the other side of the fence. But I have sat with many people in similar positions complaining about the incompetence or malevolence of publishers. The suggestions I make, put to practice, would help in getting their best work.
-------------------- Jeez, granfalloon, that longer post above might be one of the most thoughtful, best written things I've ever read on Comicon. --Lawson Posts: 493 | From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Oct 2003
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I have one more thing to add at this point. While you need to have a contract, many deals in comics are done with a handshake. In many cases a handshake is as good as a contract because the creator, who is usually a small businessman can't afford to sue over a few thousand dollars even if he does have a contract. All that he can do is tell everyone what happened and attempt to ruin your reputation.
On the other hand, not all creators are ethical either. I sat with a friend who would probably prefer that I don't mention his name. He was the first artist on a property owned by a small company, which was later sold to a medium size company which was later bought up by a huge company. The property was made into a major motion picture.
After the film came out, we sat with four people, one of whom was a lawyer. She told our friend to sue (but thinking back she didn't say who he should have sued). He replied that he had no grounds to sue, he didn't own the property at any time and he had no reason to believe that the big company used his drawings to design their movie. She said that he should sue anyway and that they would give him $50,000 just to get rid of him. The artist didn't sue, probably because he felt that he was treated fairly by the company in the first place and that being decent was worth more than $50,000.
Anyway a contract will do you a lot of good, but so will a warm and meaningful handshake. If you come up with the next Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, you don't want everyone you know who made a suggestion to you along the way suing you into misery.
-------------------- Jeez, granfalloon, that longer post above might be one of the most thoughtful, best written things I've ever read on Comicon. --Lawson Posts: 493 | From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
How does it hurt anyone involved to have an agreement in writing? What is the benefit to NOT having an agreement in writing?
Perfectly reasonable people can interpret or remember a conversation differently, after time.
Contracts are not about just protecting yourself against unethical behavior. And having one doesn't mean you don't trust someone. They are a way to avoid confusion. No business relationship was ever harmed by all parties clearly understanding their business arrangement and wanting it in writing.
In fact it can serve to keep a friendly business arrangement, friendly, by avoiding disagreements.
Posts: 5270 | From: Cleveland Heights, Ohio | Registered: Jun 2001
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I don't think a contract hurts anybody unless it is so one-sided that you feel like you're selling your soul when you sign it. I have signed at least one of those. Instead of having the experience of working in comics ruined step by step as the project went on, I knew right from the start that I was going to be screwed for the chance of having a credit in the holy comic books. Generally though, memories are short and selective and everybody should have a written understanding of what they are getting into when they get into it.
I lettered for DC, Eclipse and Image (when Image was a big company). In each case I had no contract, just a verbal understanding of page rate. Everybody was decent and nice. Most of the companies I have worked for would go broke if they had to keep a lawyer on retainer for writing contracts. Most of the artists I know would go bust too, if they had to hire lawyers to go through every contract. Once I hired a lawyer for about $500 (on a $30,000 job) and it was worth every penny.
I suspect most artists will see their contracts as being "industry standard" and trust the company they are working for because of the company's track record. To let you know I have been screwed twice. Neither time did I have a contract but it wouldn't have really mattered if I did.
Contracts are important but no substitute for having a good reputation.
I have read a lot about the world of comedy. When Zeppo Marx left his brothers he started a talent agency which became the third largest in Hollywood. There was never a contract. He claims that people stayed with him because he was worth staying with and any problems that came up were worked out verbally. Now, if I were starting a comic company, or working for a fledgling one I would want that attitude ON TOP of a contract.
Am I making sense here?
-------------------- Jeez, granfalloon, that longer post above might be one of the most thoughtful, best written things I've ever read on Comicon. --Lawson Posts: 493 | From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Oct 2003
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You don't need to hire a lawyer for everything. For small jobs I usually just spell out the agreement in an email before I start a job, and sometimes if appropriate on the invoice.
And I understand what you're saying, and wish there were more people like Zeppo Marx, but working with just a handshake may be more charming but it isn't inherently more virtuous. I agree there is no substitute for being an ethical businessman but I just think there should be no stigma attached to having a written agreement either. Like I said above, "Contracts are not about just protecting yourself against unethical behavior. And having one doesn't mean you don't trust someone. They are a way to avoid confusion. No business relationship was ever harmed by all parties clearly understanding their business arrangement and wanting it in writing." in fact for me it's more for clarity and keeping on good terms with my clients than it is for protection in a lawsuit, because it would probably be too costly and annoying to sue anyone anyway.
I'm curious why you would sign a contract you suspected of being so one sided?
I'll admit I've been screwed quite a few times by people who insisted on doing business with just a handshake. One guy got me for ten grand a year for two years running, with just some smiles and very reasonable sounding delays. And as we passed the second year deadline I pressed for payment, politely as I could, and you should have seen the smile on his face when he looked me in the eye and said maybe I should have gotten it in writing. And the smile. Like he was proud of it. As if he had some special skill or something, by not having any integrity.
Posts: 5270 | From: Cleveland Heights, Ohio | Registered: Jun 2001
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I don't know if the people you refer to as having screwed you around gave been in comics but certainly I have met many in comics that have acted that way. Some have gone on to be very respected by the people who don't know them. Others have disappeared. Others have entered fields outside of comics like real estate and film and proceded to pull similar stunts there.
I am at the fringe of the fringe in the comic book business. I have lettered, written, pencilled and inked professionally but only rarely at a level where I could actually support myself. Fortunately I have other income so a reasonable payment/work ratio is not a huge consideration for me. I have signed one sided agreements that have discluded me from payment in all future use of the work, state that I will be paid if and when it is used, require unpaid revisions and require unpaid art for promotional purposes just so that I can work in comics. I am not unusual. Believe it or not, there are people that I just won't work with. They are below MY standards.
-------------------- Jeez, granfalloon, that longer post above might be one of the most thoughtful, best written things I've ever read on Comicon. --Lawson Posts: 493 | From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Oct 2003
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